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Thursday,  November  30,  2017 

U.S.  House  of  Representatives, 

Permanent  Select  Committee  on  Intelligence, 
Washington,  D.C. 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  3:05  p.m.,  in  Room 
HVC-304,  the  Capitol,  the  Honorable  Mike  Conaway  presiding. 

Present:  Representatives  Conaway,  King,  LoBiondo,  Rooney, 
Ros-Lehtinen,  Turner,  Wenstrup,  Stewart,  Crawford,  Gowdy,  Stefanik 
Hurd,  Schiff,  Himes,  Speier,  Quigley,  Swalwell,  Castro,  and  Heck. 

Also  Present:  Representative  Calvert. 




CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right.  A  quorum  being  present,  I 
call  the  meeting  to  order. 

I'd  like  to  welcome  our  witness,  Mr.  Erik  Prince.  Thank  you  for 
speaking  with  us  today. 

As  a  reminder  to  our  members,  we  are  and  will  remain  in  open 
session.  This  hearing  will  address  only  unclassified  matters. 
Although  the  hearing  is  closed,  a  transcript  will  be  produced  and 
released  to  the  public. 

Before  we  begin,  I'd  like  to  take  care  of  a  few  housekeeping 
matters . 

First,  without  objection,  I  move  that  each  side  shall  be  given 
30  minutes  to  ask  Mr.  Prince  questions.  At  each  60-minute  interval, 
I  will  ask  unanimous  consent  to  continue  the  alternating  30-minute 
rounds . 

Without  further  objection,  the  chair  is  authorized  to  declare  a 
recess  of  the  committee  at  any  time. 

At  this  time,  I  would  like  the  witness  to  raise  his  right  hand. 
Thank  you,  sir. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  or  affirm  that  the  testimony  you  give  before 
the  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  do. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Thank  you.  Mr.  Prince,  you  may  be  seated. 

Before  I  give  you  the  opportunity  to  make  a  brief  opening 
statement,  I  want  to  cover  some  basic  information  as  well  as  provide 




you  with  ground  rules  regarding  today's  hearing. 

Let  the  record  reflect  that  the  committee  sent  you  a  letter  on 
May  17,  2017,  requesting  that  you  produce  documents  and  appear  before 
the  committee  for  a  voluntary  interview.  I  will  note  that  you  have 
agreed  to  voluntarily  testify  in  this  setting,  and  we  appreciate  you 
being  here  today. 

A  transcript  of  today's  hearing  will  be  made  public. 

I  also  understand  you've  just  provided  the  committee  with 
responsive  documents  this  afternoon  and  that  copies  have  been  provided 
to  both  the  minority  and  majority  staff. 

Mr.  Prince,  questions  during  today's  hearing  may  seem  basic  to 
you,  but  that's  because  we  need  to  clearly  establish  facts  relevant 
to  our  investigation.  Please  do  not  assume  we  know  any  facts  that  you 
have  previously  disclosed  as  part  of  any  other  interview  or  review. 
We  ask  that  you  give  complete  and  fulsome  replies  to  our  questions  based 
on  your  best  recollection.  If  a  question  is  unclear  or  you're 
uncertain  in  your  response,  please  let  us  know.  If  you  do  not  know 
the  answer  to  the  question  or  cannot  remember,  just  simply  say  so. 

If  you  need  a  break,  please  let  us  know. 

As  you  know,  this  hearing  will  be  transcribed.  There's  a 
reporter  making  a  record  of  these  proceedings  so  we  can  easily  consult 
a  written  compilation  of  your  answers.  Because  the  reporter  cannot 
record  gestures,  we  ask  that  you  answer  verbally.  If  you  forget  to 
do  this,  you  may  be  reminded  to  do  so.  You  may  also  be  asked  to  spell 
certain  terms  or  unusual  phrases. 




You're  entitled  to  have  a  lawyer  present  for  this  interview, 
though  you  are  not  required  to  do  so.  Do  you  have  counsel  or  anticipate 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right.  The  answer  is  no. 

Finally,  you’re  reminded  that  you  are  providing  testimony  under 
oath  and  that  it  is  unlawful  to  deliberately  provide  false  information 
to  Members  of  Congress  or  staff. 

Before  we  proceed  to  your  opening  statement  and  then  to  questions, 
I  will  recognize  my  friend  and  colleague,  Mr.  Schiff,  for  any  opening 
remarks  that  he  would  like  to  make.  Adam? 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Welcome  to  the  committee.  We  are  in  receipt  of  the  documents  that 
you  provided.  It's  going  to  take  us  some  time  to  go  through  them. 

I  do  want  to  raise  a  concern  --  this  is  more  a  committee  concern 
than  a  witness  concern  --  with  scheduling  witnesses  for  testimony 
before  we  have  documents.  The  document  request  is  now  some  months  old. 
It's  incumbent  on  the  committee  to  follow  up  on  the  document  requests. 
And  it  severely  constrains  our  ability  to  be  effective  when  we  only 
receive  the  documents  when  the  hearing  begins. 

So  that’s  a  concern  we've  raised  in  the  past  which  we  wish  to  raise 

And,  with  that,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  yield  back. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Thank  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Prince,  an  opening  statement  in  5  minutes,  or  are  you  ready 




to  proceed  to  questions? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Let  me  start  with  a  brief  opening  statement. 

I  don’t  recall  receiving  any  letter  from  the  committee  asking  for 
any  documents,  but  I  did  get  a  letter  from  the  Senate  Intelligence 
Committee.  And  so  you’ll  see  a  cover  letter  I  made  to  Chairman  Burr 
and  Senator  Warner.  And  so  they  asked  for,  I  would  imagine,  pretty 
much  the  same  thing  you’re  looking  for. 

So  this  production  was  provided  to  them  prior  to  Thanksgiving. 
And,  yeah,  you're  getting  the  copy  today,  but  it's  a  fairly  easy  to 
read  to  get  through.  And  we'll  go  from  there. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right. 

I’ll  recognize  Mr.  Rooney  for  30  minutes. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Mr.  Prince,  hopefully,  you  know,  we  are  able  to  get 
through  everything  that  we  need  to  get  through  here  today  so  you  won't 
have  to  come  back.  So  I  encourage  you,  as  much  information  as  you  can 
give  to  this  committee,  so  that  we  don '  t  have  to  -  -  you  know,  that  might 
be  in  these  documents  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Sure. 

MR.  ROONEY:  --  et  cetera,  you  know,  would  be  of  utmost  help. 

My  line  of  questioning  is  background  to  start. 

What  role  did  you  play  in  the  Donald  Trump  for  President  campaign? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  played  no  official  or,  really,  unofficial  role. 

MR.  ROONEY:  When  you  say  you  played  no  unofficial  role,  are  you 
saying  that  you  basically  were  just  a  --  were  you  a  supporter  of  his 
or  -- 




MR.  PRINCE:  Sure.  I  supported  him  monetarily .  I  attended  some 
fundraisers.  I  wrote  some  papers  on  different  foreign  policy 
positions  and,  you  know,  kicked  them  up  into  the  adviser-sphere  on  what 
should  be  done  on  Middle  Eastern  or  African  counterterrorism  issues. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Who  did  you  give  those  papers  to? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Normally,  I  sent  them  to  Steve  Bannon. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Did  you  coordinate  that  with  him,  or  did  you 
just  --  did  you  assume  that  that  was  your  point  of  contact  in  the 
campaign?  And  why? 

MR.  PRINCE:  He  was  the  only  guy  I  knew  pretty  well.  I'd  known 
him  since  a  book  event  back  in  2013. 

MR.  ROONEY:  So  when  you  say  there  was  no  formal  role,  this  was 
just  you  --  were  they  asking  you  to  write  these  papers,  or  were  you 
doing  this  sort  of  on  your  own  as  just  an  FYI? 

MR.  PRINCE:  On  my  own. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Okay.  So,  aside  from  writing  these  papers, 
donating,  supporting  in  a  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yard  sign  in  my  yard. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Yeah.  So  there  was  no  other  formal  communications 
or  contact  with  the  campaign? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Did  you  have  any  contact  with  Mr.  Trump  himself  as 
a  candidate? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  met  him  once  at  a  fundraiser  photo-op  prior  to  the 
election.  That's  all. 




MR.  ROONEY:  I  want  to  focus  in  on  a  meeting  in  the  Seychelles 
on  --  I  believe  it  was  a  January  11,  2017,  meeting.  Can  you  tell  me 
about  that  and  why  it  was  reported  supposedly  that  you  presented 
yourself  as  an  unofficial  representative  of  Mr.  Trump?  If  that '  s  true. 

MR.  PRINCE :  Well,  I  will  read  from  the  letter  I  sent  to  the  Senate 


On  or  around  January  11,  2017,  I  traveled  to  the  Seychelles  to 
meet  with  some  potential  customers  from  the  UAE  for  the  logistics 
business  of  which  I  am  chairman.  After  the  meeting,  they  mentioned 
a  guy  I  should  meet  who  was  also  in  town  to  see  them,  a  Kirill  Dmitriev 
from  Russia,  who  ran  some  sort  of  hedge  fund. 

I  met  him  in  the  hotel  bar,  and  we  chatted  on  topics  ranging  from 
oil  and  commodity  prices  to  how  much  his  country  wished  for  resumption 
of  normal  trade  relations  with  the  --  relationship  with  the  USA.  I 
remember  telling  him  that  if  Franklin  Roosevelt  could  work  with  Josef 
Stalin  to  defeat  Nazi  fascism,  then  certainly  Donald  Trump  could  work 
with  Vladimir  Putin  to  defeat  Islamic  fascism. 

The  meeting  ended  after  a  maximum  of  30  minutes.  I've  had  no 
communications  or  dealings  with  him  or  any  of  his  colleagues  before 
or  after  that  encounter  last  January. 

That's  really  all  there  is  to  say  about  that  meeting. 

MR.  ROONEY:  When  you  met  with  Mr.  Dmitriev,  were  you  under  the 
impression  that  he  was  a  representative  of  the  Russian  Government? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  just  knew  that  he  was  a  Russian  fund  manager.  I 
didn '  t  know  what  level  of  ownership  or  control  of  the  Russian  Government 




or  private  investors  there  was  in  Russia. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Was  the  point  of  that  meeting  for  you  to  represent 
the  Trump  campaign  or  Mr.  Trump  in  any  way? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  ROONEY:  So  you  were  doing  this  in  your  own  capacity,  for  your 
business,  to  meet  with  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  The  Emiratis  I'd  just  met  with  previously  said, 
there’s  an  interesting  guy  from  Russia  you  should  meet  if  you  have  any 
business  in  the  commodity  space,  which  I  do.  I  look  at  minerals  and 
oil  and  gas.  He  said,  you  should  meet  him.  So  I  met  him  in  the  bar 
and  had  a  drink. 

MR.  ROONEY:  So  this  notion  that  you  were  there  representing  the 
Trump  campaign  is  not  true. 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  is  correct. 

MR.  ROONEY:  As  much  as  you  can  help  us  on  the  next  following 
questions,  I  would  appreciate  it.  You  might  not  be  able  to.  If  you 
don't,  you  can  just  say  you  don't  know.  But  we  have  parameters  of  this 
investigation.  Our  job  in  this  committee  is  to  write  a  report  to  try 
to  assist  the  Intelligence  Community  do  a  better  job.  As  much  as  you 
can  assist  in  those  four  parameters  and  lend  any  insight  --  and  if  you 
don't  have  any  based  on  what  our  role  here  and  what  your  role  here  is 
in  testifying,  so  far  as  you  can  testify,  we  would  appreciate  that. 

The  first  parameter  is,  what  Russian  cyber  activity  and  other 
active  measures  were  directed  against  the  United  States  and  its  allies? 
Do  you  have  any  input  on  that  bullet? 




MR.  PRINCE:  Zeno.  Not  my  field  of  expertise. 

MR.  ROONEY:  The  second  one  is,  did  the  Russian  active  measures 
include  links  between  Russia  and  individuals  associated  with  political 
campaigns  or  any  other  U.S.  persons? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  have  no  idea. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Well,  this  is  probably  the  biggest  reason  why  you're 
here,  I  would  assume,  is  that  there’s  an  inference  that  you  are  acting 
on  behalf  of  the  Russian  --  or  the  Trump  campaign  and  meeting  with 
Russian  people,  specifically  this  Dmitriev  guy.  And  so,  as  much  as 
you  can  lend  any  insight  to  this  bullet,  if  anything  more  than  what 
you  just  said,  I  think  that  this  is,  you  know,  a  large  reason  why  you're 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  here's  what  I  don't  understand  about  why  I'm 
here.  If  there's  all  this  rightful  concern  if  there  was  actual 
collusion  between  the  campaign  and  the  Russian  Government,  this  meeting 
didn't  happen  until  almost  2  months  --  more  than  2  months  after  the 
election.  So  if  there  was  all  this  collusion,  why  would  there  even 
need  to  be  any  other  followup  meetings?  So  I  don't  get  that, 

What  really  bothers  me  and  what  I  would  hope  the  Intelligence 
Committee  is  doing  is  questioning  why  Americans  that  were  caught  up 
in  waves  of  signals  intelligence,  why  on  Earth  would  The  Washington 
Post  be  running  an  article  on  any  meeting  that  a  private  citizen,  me, 
was  having  in  a  foreign  country?  That’s  illegal.  That  is  a  political 
abuse  of  the  intelligence  infrastructure .  And  that  is  really 




dangerous,  especially  as  this  committee  and  the  Congress  thinks  about 
reauthorizing  very  wide-ranging  intelligence  authorities  to  dig  into 
private  Americans '  electronic  communications  of  any  sort .  That '  s  what 
I  have  an  issue  with. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Well,  I'm  sure  we'll  get  more  into  that  as  we  move 
on.  Let  me  finish  the  bullets,  if  I  could. 

What  was  the  U.S.  Government's  response  to  these  Russian  active 
measures,  and  what  do  we  need  to  do  to  protect  ourselves  and  our  allies 
in  the  future?  Do  you  have  any  input  on  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  Sorry. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Finally,  what  possible  leaks  of  classified 
information  took  place  related  to  the  Intelligence  Community 
assessment  of  these  matters?  Do  you  have  any  input  that  you  want  to 
share  with  us  on  that  bullet? 

MR .  PRINCE :  Well,  the  only  way  The  Washington  Post  ran  an  article 
some  months  later  was  because  it  was  provided  by  someone  in  the 
government  to  them.  Okay?  And  there's  no  valid  reason  that  The 
Washington  Post  should  be  getting  those. 

So  that  is  a  leak  of  intelligence  information,  obviously  signals 
intelligence,  of  private  citizens,  Americans,  moving  around  or  doing 
business  abroad.  So  there  is  no  question,  a  leak  of  your  intelligence 
to  an  outside  party. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Do  you  have  any  idea  who  provided  that  leak? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I've  seen  a  number  of  reports  that  it  was  members 
of  the  Obama  National  Security  Council. 




MR.  ROONEY:  Do  you  have  anything  to  corroborate  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  have  no  firsthand  knowledge  of  that,  no. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Again,  I'm  going  to  ask  you  about  collusion  --  you 
brought  that  up  --  coordination,  conspiracy,  with  regard  to  the  Trump 
campaign.  If  you  don't  know  the  answer  to  this,  just  say  you  don't 

With  regard  to  any  role  that  you  played  with  regard  to  helping 
Mr.  Trump,  aside  from  financial  or  writing  a  couple  papers  for  Mr. 
Bannon  or  attending  a  fundraiser,  did  you  see  any  evidence  of  collusion, 
conspiracy,  or  coordination  between  the  Russian  Government  and  the 
Trump  campaign  during  any  interaction  you  had  with  the  Trump  campaign? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Mr.  Chairman,  I  don't  have  any  other  questions,  and 
I  don't  know  if  anybody  else  on  our  side  does  --  wants  to  weigh  in. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right.  We'll  move  to  Mr.  Schiff  for 
30  minutes. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

We  still  haven't  had  a  chance,  really,  to  go  through  the  documents 
yet,  but  hopefully  we  will  prior  to  the  conclusion  of  our  hearing  today. 

On  May  17th,  Mr.  Prince,  Mr.  Conaway  and  I  sent  you  a  letter 
inviting  you  to  testify  before  the  committee  and  requesting  documents. 
Is  it  your  testimony  that  you  never  received  that  letter? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  recall  receiving  that.  Was  it  sent  by  mail 
or  by  email  or  -- 

MR.  SCHIFF:  It  says  via  certified  mail,  electronic  mail,  and 




facsimile.  And  in  addition  to  the  letter  itself  is  an  email  that  also 
makes  reference  to  the  letter  that  was  sent  to  an  email  address  which 
I  assume  is  with  your  business. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Do  you  recall  what  email  address  that  was? 

MR.  SCHIFF:  I  do.  This  is  an  open  hearing.  Do  you  want  me  to 
use  the  email  address? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  But,  in  any  event,  you  don’t  recall  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I'm  sorry.  I  don’t. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  When  was  the  first  time  that  you  do  recall  you  were 
contacted  by  the  committee? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Kash  Patel. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  when  was  that?  Kash  Patel,  a  staff  member  of 
the  majority? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  when  did  he  contact  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Some  weeks  ago.  I  would  say  weeks,  not  months. 

MR.  SCHIFF :  So,  notwithstanding  that  our  letter  went  out  in  May, 
the  first  time  you  recall  being  contacted  by  the  committee  was  only 
weeks  ago. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes. 

MR.  SCHIFF :  Did  Mr.  Patel  ask  you  to  produce  documents  in  advance 
of  your  testimony? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  What  did  Mr.  Patel  ask  you  to  do  then? 




MR.  PRINCE:  He  just  said  to  come  in  for  an  interview. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  have  any  subsequent  communication  with  any 
of  the  members  or  staff  of  the  committee? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  talked  to  --  I  had  seen  Chairman  Nunes.  He  had 
talked  about  coming  in  for  a  hearing.  And  one  of  his  staff  members 
was  there  as  well.  That's  the  only  communications  I’ve  had. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  Mr.  Nunes  get  into  the  substance  of  your 
testimony  in  any  way? 

MR.  PRINCE:  It  was  part  of  the  investigation  into  the  unmasking 
of  intelligence  on  Americans.  That's  what  he  talked  to  me  about. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  That's  what  the  chairman  related  to  you  was  the 
purpose  of  your  being  interviewed  by  us  today? 

MR.  PRINCE:  He  said  I  should  come  in  and  talk  to  him  about  that. 
And  the  next  thing  I  hear  --  the  next  thing  I  recall  is  getting  a  phone 
call  from  Kash  Patel. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  how  soon  after  your  discussion  with  the  chairman 
did  you  get  the  call  from  Mr.  Patel? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  the  discussion  you  had  with  the  chairman  was  not 
at  a  meeting  related  to  the  investigation,  but  that  was  an  in-person 
discussion  you  had  with  the  chairman? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  was  talking  to  him  about  Afghanistan. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And,  at  that  point,  he  told  you  he  wanted  you  to  come 
into  the  committee;  that’s  the  first  time  you  learned  that  the  committee 
wanted  you  to  come  and  testify. 




MR.  PRINCE:  Yes. 


And,  subsequently,  Mr.  Patel  called  you. 


I  think  so,  yes. 


Let  me  begin  by  asking  you  about  a  meeting  that  was 

reported  in  the  press  to  have  taken  place  in  December  of  last  year  at 
Trump  Tower  between  representatives  of  the  UAE  and  Trump  campaign 
officials.  Are  you  aware  of  the  meeting? 


I  read  about  it  in  the  paper. 


I  take  it  from  that  you  were  not  present  at  the 



I  was  not  present. 


Did  any  of  the  participants  in  that  reported  meeting 

ever  discuss  with  you  whether  they  met  with  representatives  of  UAE  in 
New  York? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  recall. 


Well,  isn't  that  something  you  would  recall  if  it 



Well,  I  don't  recall  specifically  speaking  to  anyone 

about  a  meeting  that  happened  with  any  Emirati  officials  in  New  York. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Let  me  ask  it  this  way.  Did  any  Trump  campaign  or 
transition  officials  tell  you  that  they  met  with  representatives  of 
the  UAE  in  New  York? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  I  remember  Steve  Bannon  saying  they  had  met 
with  either  Mohammed  bin  Zayed  or  someone  like  that  and  that  he  was 
a  great  guy.  That's  all  I  recall  of  that  conversation. 





And  when  did  that  conversation  take  place? 

I  don't  remember. 

Was  that  prior  to  your  trip  to  the  Seychelles? 

I  don't  remember. 

And  where  were  you  when  you  had  the  conversation  with 

Mr.  Bannon? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No  idea. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Was  that  a  conversation  with  him  in  person? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  you  don't  know  whether  you  had  this  conversation 
with  him  over  the  phone  or  in  person. 

MR.  PRINCE:  It  could've  been  in  an  office.  It  could've  been  in 
a  restaurant.  I  truly  don't  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  But  is  it  your  recollection  that  you  had  this 
discussion  in  person? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  I  remember  --  I  remember  a  comment  from  Steve 
where  he  characterized  the  meeting  and  he  said  Mohammed  bin  Zayed  is 
a  great  guy. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  in  what  context  did  his  comment  about  Mohammed 

bin  Zayed  come  up? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Talking  about  the  challenges  of  the  Middle  East, 
Iranian  subversion,  Iranian  aggression  in  the  area,  and  how  to  pacify 
and  stabilize  Iraq  and  Syria  and  the  mess  that  it's  become. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Now,  Mohammed  bin  Zayed,  is  he  known  by  initials 
"MBZ" ? 




MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  That  may  be  easier  for  me  to  use  during  our 
interview.  Prior  to  your  conversation  with  Mr.  Bannon,  is  MBZ  someone 
that  you  had  personal  acquaintance  with? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Someone  you  know  quite  well? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  wouldn't  say  know  him  well,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  How  many  times  have  you  met  with  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  would  say  more  than  12  times. 

MR.  SCHIFF :  And  you  do  a  significant  amount  of  business  with  UAE? 
MR.  PRINCE:  Not  anymore. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  During  what  period  did  you  do  a  significant  amount 
of  business? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  would  say  not  since  2011. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  what  kind  of  business  did  you  do  prior  to  that 


MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  prior  to  that,  I  was  a  government  contractor, 
and  I  --  I  sold  that  business  and  moved  to  the  Middle  East  and  did  some 
consulting  and  started  a  fund  looking  for  energy  and  mineral 
opportunities  to  invest  in. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  in  particular  with  MBZ  and  UAE,  what  kind  of 
business  did  you  do  with  them? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Mostly  ideas  on  how  to  make  the  country  safer. 
MR.  SCHIFF:  And  did  you  do  a  significant  volume  of  business  with 





MR.  PRINCE:  No.  It  was  basically  a  place  to  operate  from 
because  it's  very  close,  very  easy  to  connect  into  Africa,  very  good 
direct  flights. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  Mr.  Bannon  know  prior  to  your  conversation  that 
you  had  done  business  in  UAE? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I'm  sure  he  reads  the  paper  as  well. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  in  addition  to  reading  the  paper,  had  you  ever 
discussed  your  work  in  UAE  with  Mr.  Bannon? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  wrote  about  --  you  know,  as  I  write  various  policy 
papers,  op-eds,  interviews,  whatever,  I've  not  been  shy  about  ideas 
on  how  to  stabilize  the  area.  So  he  certainly  knew  I  lived  there  and 
knew  of  my  relationships. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  I  think  you  told  my  colleague  that  one  of  the  things 
you  did,  to  the  degree  that  you  had  any  affiliation  with  the  campaign, 
was  occasionally  write  policy  papers  or  memos  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  --  that  you  provided  to  the  campaign. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Right. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Were  any  of  them  on  the  UAE  and  what  role  it  might 
play  either  in  the  Middle  East  or  vis-a-vis  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  In  the  conversation  that  you  had  with  Mr.  Bannon  in 
which  the  meeting  with  the  UAE  came  up,  did  he  tell  you  who  else  was 
present  at  the  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 




MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  he  give  you  any  indication  why  he  thought  you 
might  be  interested  in  the  fact  that  he  had  that  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Can  you  tell  us  any  more  than  the  fact  that  he 
mentioned  the  meeting  to  you? 




Can't  recall  anything  he  said  about  who  else  might 

have  been  there? 




Did  Mr.  Flynn's  name  come  up? 




Did  Mr.  Kushner's  name  come  up? 




So  you  -- 


I  mean,  not  that  I  recall.  I  mean,  for  heaven  sakes. 

I  don't  track  people's  whereabouts  in  specific  meetings  and  times  and 
locations.  I  wasn't  there;  it  wasn’t  my  meeting.  He  mentioned  that 
he  saw  some  Emiratis  that  were  concerned  about  the  Middle  East  and  what 
a  mess  it  is. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  he  tell  you  anything  about  the  circumstances  of 
the  meeting.,  whether  this  was  done  with  the  knowledge  and  encouragement 
of  the  then  existing  administration  or  without  their  knowledge  or 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  I  have  no  idea.  Although,  there's  been  plenty 
of  media  reports  about  the  Obama  administration  being  upset  about  the 




fact  that  some  Emiratis  came  to  the  United  States  to  meet  with  the 
incoming  administration.  I  did  remember  reading  that  in  the  paper. 
That's  the  extent  of  my  knowledge  on  it. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  But  Mr.  Bannon  didn't  go  into  that  with  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  ever  have  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Kushner 
about  meeting  with  the  UAE? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  ever  have  a  conversation  with  General  Flynn 
on  that  subject? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  have  any  interaction  with  General  Flynn 
during  the  campaign? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah.  I  saw  him  --  I  think  I  had  breakfast  with  him 
one  time  prior  to  his  joining  the  campaign  in  any  kind  of  official 
capacity.  It  was  --  I  don't  remember  the  exact  date,  but  it  was  before 
he  was  any  kind  of  active  or  traveling  with  the  President,  or  the 
then-candidate  Trump. 

And  we  basically  --  I'd  never  met  him  before,  and  I  asked  for  the 
meeting,  and  I  just  wanted  to  compare  world  views  on  the  problem  sets 
in  Afghanistan  and  Iraq  and  Pakistan  and  Syria.  And,  you  know, 
there's  --  the  Obama  administration  did  not  leave  the  world  a  very 
peaceful  place.  There  was  no  shortage  of  problem  areas  to  go  over. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Was  that  your  only  interaction  with  General  Flynn 
during  the  campaign? 




MR.  PRINCE:  That  was  the  only  breakfast  or  sit-down  or  any  kind 
of  meeting  I  had  with  him.  Other  than  that,  I  saw  him  at  a  couple  of 
events  where  I  might  have  waved  or  said  hi  or  just  said,  "Hang  in  there, 
and  keep  going."  That's  the  only  interaction  I  had  with  him. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  during  any  of  these  interactions,  did  you 
discuss  with  General  Flynn  the  U.S.  relationship  with  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  How  much  interaction  did  you  have  with  Steve  Bannon 
during  the  campaign? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  he's  a  pretty  busy  guy,  so  I  would  --it  was 
mostly  by  a  text,  a  text  of  encouragement  or  a  certain  point  to  make 
on  a  certain  issue.  Other  than  that,  a  few  unsolicited  policy  papers 
or  ideas  that  I  would  email  to  him.  That's  all. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  Mr.  Bannon  ever  text  or  communicate  with  you  in 
writing  about  the  UAE  in  any  way? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  that  I  recall. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Apart  from  the  conversation  you  described  with  Mr. 
Bannon,  did  anyone  else  ever  inform  you  that  a  meeting  took  place 
between  representatives  of  the  campaign  or  transition  team  and  the  UAE 
in  New  York? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  that  I  recall. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  During  your  discussions  with  Mr.  Bannon  during  the 
campaign,  did  you  discuss  U.S. -Russia  relations? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  recall  a  sentiment  reflecting  that  the 
Russians  --  in  regards  to  fighting  Islamic  fascism,  the  Russians  don't 




have  to  be  our  enemy. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  Mr.  Bannon  ever  indicate  to  you  whether  he  had 
met  with  any  representatives  of  the  Russian  Government? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Never  indicated  anything  on  that  subject. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Or  their  intermediaries? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Never  received  any  information  on  anything  like 
that,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  anyone  affiliated  with  the  campaign  or 
transition  team  indicate  to  you  that  they  were  engaged  in  any 
discussions  with  the  Russians? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No  idea. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Through  any  channels,  front  or  back  or  otherwise? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Front  side,  back  side,  no  side,  never  got  any 
indication  of  anything  like  that. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  The  trip  to  the  Seychelles  that  you  took  in  January 
of  this  year,  how  did  that  first  come  about? 

MR.  PRINCE:  What  do  you  mean? 

MR.  SCHIFF:  In  other  words,  you  don't  live  in  the  Seychelles, 

correct ? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  At  some  point,  you  made  the  decision  to  go  to  the 
Seychelles.  On  what  basis  did  you  decide  to  go  the  Seychelles  for  that 
January  trip? 

MR.  PRINCE :  I  was  invited  there  to  come  talk  about  some  potential 
business  in  the  future. 





And  who  invited  you  to  discuss  that  business? 

One  of  the  members  of  the  royal  court. 

Which  royal  court? 

The  people  that  work  for  Mohammed  bin  Zayed,  MBZ. 
And  what  particular  business  did  they  invite  you  to 

come  discuss? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Everything  from  security  issues  to  mineral  issues 
to  even  bauxite. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  how  did  they  communicate  or  extend  this 
invitation  to  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  they  send  you  a  proposal  in  writing? 

MR.  PRINCE:  What  do  you  mean? 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  did  they  write  to  you  and  invite  you  to  come 
to  the  Seychelles  to  discuss  doing  further  business  with  the  UAE? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  did  not  receive  a  letter,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  receive  a  call?  And  if  you  received  a  call, 
who  did  you  receive  the  call  from? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember  who  called  me.  I  think  it  was  one 
of  his  schedulers.  And  just  said,  "His  Highness  would  like  to  see  you 
if  you  can  come  out  to  the  Seychelles." 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  was  that  the  extent  of  the  request,  or  were  you 
given  more  information  about  why  they  wanted  to  visit  with  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  was  all. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  They  just  said,  "His  Majesty  would  like  to  see  you. 




Will  you  meet  him  in  the  Seychelles?" 


His  Highness. 


His  Highness. 

And  that  was  enough  to  say  yes? 


Uh-huh . 


And  how  long  prior  to  the  trip  did  you  receive  this 



I  don't  know. 

I  was  scheduled  to  be  out  in  the 

Middle  East  --  in 

Africa,  anyway. 

I  mean,  I  just  got  back  from  a  trip 

to  Africa  at  7  o'clock  this  morning,  so  I  move  around  a  lot. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  if,  as  reported,  there  was  a  December  meeting 
in  New  York  between  representatives  of  the  UAE  and  Mr.  Bannon,  could 
this  call  have  been  received  by  you  after  that  December  meeting  and 
prior  to  the  January  11th  trip? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Wait  a  minute.  Say  that  again,  please. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  If  the  meeting  that  Mr.  Bannon  described  to  you  took 
place  in  New  York  with  the  UAE  in  December  and  your  trip  to  the 
Seychelles  or  your  meeting  in  the  Seychelles  took  place  in  mid-January, 
did  you  receive  the  call  between  the  Bannon  meeting  and  the  trip? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  have  any  indication  in  the  call  you  received 
from  the  representative  of  MBZ  that  it  was  a  followup  to  the  discussion 
that  Mr.  Bannon  had  had? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  to  the  best  of  your  recollection  -- and  I  realize 
you  can't  be  precise  about  this  --  how  long  after  the  call  did  you  leave 




for  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  remember,  but,  like  I  said,  I  move  around 
a  lot  between  the  Far  East,  the  Middle  East,  Europe,  and  Africa.  I 
spend  entirely  too  much  of  my  life  in  an  airplane.  So  it  would  not 
have  been  unusual.  I  mean,  most  people  don't  travel  that  much;  I  travel 
a  lot.  And  so  moving  those  kind  of  distances  on  short  notice  is  not 
unheard  of. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  would  the  UAE  have  made  the  arrangements  for 
where  you  would  be  staying  in  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah.  I  stayed  at  the  same  hotel  where  the  rest  of 
the  UAE  group  was. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  where  was  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  It  was  a  very  nice  hotel .  I  don 't  remember  the  name. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Can  you  give  us  any  description  of  it  that  we  could 
identify  the  hotel? 

MR.  PRINCE:  It  was  a  --  I’d  say  it  was  at  least  a  four-star,  nice 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  that  may  not  narrow  it  down  very  much.  I’ve 
never  been  to  the  Seychelles,  but  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  was  my  first  time  as  well.  And  it  was  probably 
a  half-hour  drive  from  the  airport. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  do  you  have  records,  Mr.  Prince  --  they  might  be 
credit  card  records  or  phone  records  --  from  your  stay  in  the  Seychelles 
that  would  help  us  identify  where  you  were  staying? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  know.  I  think  your  friends  at  The 




Washington  Post  reported  it  as  the  Four  Seasons,  but  I  don’t  even 
remember  if  that  was  the  place. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  I'd  rather  rely  on  your  records. 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  -- 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Will  you  check  to  see  if  you  have  any  credit  card 
history  or  other  statements  that  would  be  able  to  tell  us  where  you 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  will  --  I  will  check. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  who  made  the  logistical  arrangements  for  where 
and  when  you  would  meet  once  you  were  at  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  The  same  people  that  called  to  schedule.  There  was 
a  guy  that  picked  me  up  at  the  airport  and  took  me  to  the  venue,  and 
I  stayed  overnight  and  left  the  next  morning. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  would  someone  on  your  staff  have  been  in  touch 
with  someone  from  the  UAE  to  arrange  for  all  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  They  would've  called  me. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  they  would’ve  told  you  when  to  arrive  in  the 
Seychelles  and  what?  How  would  this  work? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  remember  how  exactly  it  happened  this  time, 
but  they  would've  said,  hey,  if  you  can  make  it  on  or  around  this  date, 
please  come  see  His  Highness. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  tell  us  what  happened  after  you  arrived  then. 
They  picked  you  up  at  the  airport? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes.  I  cleared  customs  and  went  to  the 
airport  --or  went  to  the  hotel  and  had  a  --  met  with  him  for  probably 




an  hour. 

And,  at  the  end,  one  of  the  entourage  says,  "Hey,  by  the  way, 
there's  this  Russian  guy  that  we've  dealt  with  in  the  past.  He's  here 
also  to  see  someone  from  the  Emirati  delegation.  And  you  should  meet 
him.  He'd  be  an  interesting  guy  for  you  to  know,  since  you're  doing 
a  lot  in  the  oil  and  gas  and  mineral  space." 

So,  as  I  recall,  I  met  him,  this  same  guy  I  talked  about,  Kirill 
Dmitriev.  Met  him  down  in  the  bar  after  dinner,  and  we  talked  for 
30  minutes  over  a  beer,  and  that  was  it. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Now,  the  meeting  you  had  prior  to  that  with  the 
representative  of  the  UAE,  or  representatives,  how  long  did  that  last? 
You  said  an  hour? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Probably  an  hour. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  the  meeting  with  Mr.  Dmitriev  lasted  a  half  an 


MR.  PRINCE:  Maximum.  It  was  probably  more  like  20  minutes. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  approximately  a  third  of  your  time  was  meeting 
with  the  Russian  and  the  other  two-thirds  was  meeting  with  the  UAE 

MR.  PRINCE:  Sure.  We're  splitting  hairs,  but  -- 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  what  was  the  nature  of  your  discussion  --  well, 
first  of  all,  if  you  could  tell  us  who  from  the  UAE  was  represented 
at  that  meeting. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember  all  the  names. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  tell  us  the  names  you  do  remember. 




MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  Mohammed  bin  Zayed  was  there  and  a  couple  of 
his  brothers,  but  I'm  not  sure  which  ones. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Was  that  unusual,  to  have  Mohammed  bin  Zayed  present 
himself?  Did  that  indicate  a  certain  level  of  importance  that  he 
attached  to  the  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said,  I've  met  him  a  number  of  times  before. 
I  hadn't  seen  him  for  some  time,  so  we  were  talking  about  a  wide  range 
of  issues.  And  various  brothers  and  entourage  people  were  moving  in 
and  out  of  the  group.  It  was  in  an  outdoor  setting. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  you  hadn't  talked  with  him  for  years  and  then  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  didn't  say  years.  I  said  for  some  time. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  For  some  time.  And  more  or  less  out  of  the  blue  you 
get  a  call  that  he  wants  to  meet  with  you  in  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I’ll  be  direct  about  it.  I  think  --  I  think 
the  Obama  administration  went  out  of  their  way  to  tarnish  my  ability 
to  do  business  in  the  Middle  East,  and,  with  a  different  administration 
in  town,  they  probably  figured  that  that  downdraft  wasn't  present 

So  I'd  been  wanting  to  see  him  for  some  time,  because  there's  a 
lot  of  problems  in  the  Middle  East  that  I  think  some  innovation  could 
put  those  fires  out.  And  so  it  was  not  a  surprise  that  the  meeting 
happened.  And  those  are  the  kind  of  things  we  talked  about,  whether 
it’s  Somalia  and  terrorism  there  or  Libya,  Nigeria,  and  of  course  all 
the  places  that  are  even  closer  to  the  UAE. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  it's  your  view  that  the  reason  that  the  --  and 




correct  me,  I'm  going  to  get  this  wrong.  "His  Majesty"  was  it? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Highness. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  His  Highness.  Excuse  me.  The  reason  His  Highness 
wanted  to  get  together  with  you  was  because  he  felt,  with  the  new 
administration,  it  would  be  easier  for  him  to  do  business  with  you? 
Or  was  it  more  that  he  felt  that  you  had  a  connection  to  the  incoming 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  --  well,  I  would  suspect  that  it  was  because 
the  situations  in  the  Middle  East  had  grown  very  difficult  and  they 
were  looking  for  other  solutions  to  some  of  the  problems  that  the  Obama 
administration  had  not  been  able  to  find  solutions  for. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  they  also  view  you  as  entre  to  the  incoming 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  You  don't  think  your  connection  with  any  of  the  Trump 
campaign,  Mr.  Bannon,  or  any  of  the  other  relationships  you  had  had 
anything  to  do  with  why  you  got  that  call  after  not  hearing  from  the 
Prince  for  some  time? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  have  never  purported  or  positioned  to  having 
any  great  access  to  the  Trump  administration.  Was  I  happy  he  won? 
Absolutely.  But,  you  know,  I  never  pursued  a  staff  position  there, 
I  never  pursued  any  kind  of  leadership  role.  But  as  a  taxpayer  and 
a  parent,  figuring  out  ways  to  end  these  endless  wars  that  America  is 
involved  in,  you  bet  I  was  --  I'm  happy  to  have  anybody  hear  my  voice 
on  that. 




MR.  SCHIFF:  And  is  it  your  view,  Mr.  Prince,  that  the  presence 
of  the  Russian  state  banker  was  a  mere  coincidence,  that  this  was  not 
part  of  why  the  UAE  invited  you  to  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  let's  just  say  when  you're  running  a  country, 
a  very  successful,  affluent  country,  there's  a  lot  of  people  waiting 
to  see  or  to  meet  with  leadership.  So,  you  know,  whether  they  do 
business  with  Russia  or  China  or  Europe  or  whatever,  they  have  very 
good  relationships  with  a  lot  of  other  countries,  so  it's  not  a  surprise 
that  other  leaders,  other  people  from  other  countries  would've  been 
waiting  to  see  or  having  met  with  any  of  that  leadership. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  none  of  the  UAE  delegation,  including  the  Prince, 
gave  you  any  reason  to  believe  that  part  of  the  reason  they  wanted  you 
to  come  to  Seychelles  was  to  meet  Mr.  Dmitriev? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  at  all.  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  What  did  you  discuss  during  the  first  hour  of  your 
meeting  with  the  Prince  and  the  UAE  delegation? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said,  we  discussed  the  problems  of  terrorism 
in  the  area  and  how  to  put  some  of  those  fires  out.  And  we  discussed 
the  price  of  bauxite,  which  is  what  you  use  for  making  aluminum.  Things 
like  that.  So  -- 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  did  you  discuss  any  specific  business  proposal? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  Conceptual-only  stuff. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  it's  your  view,  Mr.  Prince,  that  the  Prince,  MBZ, 
invited  you  all  the  way  to  the  Seychelles  not  to  talk  about  anything 
specific,  any  specific  business  he  wanted  to  do  with  you,  but  to  have 




a  generalized  discussion  about  bauxite  and  the  Middle  East  and  other 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  leaders  are  always  looking  for  people  to  have 
different  ideas  to  share  with  them  how  to  deal  with  the  crises  they 
have.  I  mean,  they  have  active  wars  within  a  few  hundred  miles  of  their 
borders,  and  of  course  people  are  looking  for  specific  ideas.  And  I 
like  the  UAE.  I  lived  there  full-time  for  3  years.  My  kids  went  to 
school  there.  And  it's  a  bit  of  an  oasis,  literally  in  the  desert, 

of  peace  and  tranquility,  and  I  hope  it  can  stay  that  way. 


MR.  SCHIFF:  And  knowing  what  you  do  about  the  UAE,  isn't  it  also 
a  fact  that  countries  like  the  UAE,  and  in  particular  the  UAE,  in  order 
to  enhance  its  influence,  like  to  put  people  together  in  a  way  that 
enhances  their  position  and  their  prestige  --  in  this  case,  someone 
with  ties  to  the  Trump  campaign  and  a  Russian  banker? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said,  there  was  no  formal  introduction.  It's 
not  like  I  was  at  a  meeting  and  they  invited  this  Russian  guy  to  the 
meeting.  It  was  a  matter  of ,  "Hey,  while  you '  re  here,  there' s  a  Russian 
guy  that  we’ve  done  some  business  with  in  the  past,  and  it'd  be 
interesting  for  you  to  meet  him."  So  that's  why  I  met  him  down  in  the 
bar  after  dinner,  with  no  other  Emiratis  present. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  the  meeting  that  you  had  with  the  Prince,  was 
that  a  dinner  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  It  was  just  in  the  afternoon. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  where,  in  particular,  within  the  hotel  did  you 
have  that  meeting? 




MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Was  it  in  the  bar  also? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  It  was  not.  Like  I  said,  it  was  an 
outdoor  --it  was  some  kind  of  a  deck. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  at  the  conclusion  of  that  discussion,  who  was 
it  that  suggested  that  you  meet  the  Russian  banker? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  You  don’t  know  whether  it  was  the  Prince  or  someone 
in  the  delegation? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  think  it  was  one  of  the  brothers.  But  it 
wasn't  Sheikh  Mohammed. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  One  of  his  brothers? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  so.  I  don't  know.  But,  I  mean,  it  was  not 
a  --  it  was  not  a  formal  introduction.  It  was  a,  "Hey,  while  you're 
out  here,  it’d  be  interesting  for  you  to  meet  this  guy."  That's  all. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  did  the  brother  escort  you  to  meet  the  Russian 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Then  who  did,  or  how  did  you  find  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  think  --  I  think  I  just  met  him  in  the  bar, 
and  we  found  each  other  and  sat  and  had  a  beer  for  half  an  hour,  and 
that  was  it. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  how  did  you  know  he  was  at  the  bar? 




MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  I  recall  one  of  them  saying,  "He'll  be  down 
in  the  bar  area  after  dinner,  if  you  wanted  to  meet  this  guy." 

MR.  SCHIFF :  So  the  UAE  delegation  knew  where  and  when  the  Russian 
banker  would  be  in  the  bar? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  really  don't  remember. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Okay.  At  some  later  point,  you  went  to  the  bar  to 
meet  him,  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  had  dinner.  And  there's  a  big  outdoor 
buffet  area.  And  I  had  dinner  and  then  found  this  guy  in  the  bar  after 
I  was  done  eating. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  --  is  that  the  end  of  my  time,  Mr.  Chairman? 
Okay.  I  will  reserve. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right. 

I  ask  unanimous  consent  to  continue  the  alternating  30-minute 
rounds . 

Without  objection. 

Our  side  is  recognized  for  30  minutes. 

Mr.  Prince,  you  gave  us  a  packet  of  documents  that  you  brought 
that  you  said  you  gave  to  the  Senate.  There  is  a  date  in  there.  There 
are  some  parameters.  Can  you  walk  us  through?  Were  those  your 
parameters,  your  dates?  How  did  you  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  Those  were  --  those  are  the  parameters  that 
they  asked  me  in  the  letter  I  received  from  them. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  So  you  did  get  a  letter  from  them. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes. 





And  then  what’s  magic  about  the  June  16th  date?  Did  they 
explain  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  was  their  specified  date. 


The  series  of  email  exchanges  appear  to  be  between  you  and  a 
Christophe  Charlier. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yep. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Is  that  how  you  pronounce  his  name? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  so. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  C-h-a-r-l-i-e-r .  Rather  than  walk  us 
through  each  one  of  them,  can  you  give  me  just  a  sense  of  what  the 
back-and-forth  was  about?  It  seems  to  be  some  sort  of  business  deal. 
Or  what  was  the  gist  of  these  emails? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah.  The  first  email,  as  I  recall,  dates  from 
November,  end  of  November  2016.  And  he  is  emailing  me,  congratulating 
me  on  the  appointment  of  my  sister  to  be  Secretary  of  Education.  And 
then  the  rest  of  the  communications  were  in  2017. 

And  Mr.  Charlier  runs  an  investment  bank  with  an  office  in  Russia. 
And  he  lives  between  the  U.K.  and  Switzerland,  I  recall.  And  that 
investment  bank  focuses  on  natural  resources,  fundraising,  capital, 
debt  equity,  mergers  and  acquisitions  kind  of  stuff.  And  I  have 
a  --  one  of  the  businesses  I'm  involved  in  is  a  survey  business,  and 
we  do  advanced  search  for  oil  and  gas  and  minerals.  So  we  were  looking 
at  -- 





MR.  PRINCE:  Not  seismic  but  farther  upstream  than  that .  Mag  and 
graph . 


MR.  PRINCE:  And  so  we  looking  at  doing  something  with  that 
business,  raising  some  more  capital  for  it  to  do  an  acquisition  or  to 
divest  it.  And  so  one  of  my  colleagues  knew  Mr.  Charlier.  I  think 
he  had  gone  to  college  with  him.  And  so  that  was  the  impetus  of  that 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  And  then  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  would  also  specify  that  that  investment  bank  he 
works  for  is  a  private  one.  It  is  not  in  any  way  affiliated  with  the 
government . 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  The  government  of  who? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Russia. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Okay.  So  did  you  wind  up  doing  a  deal? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Did  nothing.  Transacted  zero.  Nothing  with  him. 


So  the  request  from  the  Senate  asked  you  for  anything  relative 
to  Russia.  Did  they  know  about  Mr.  Charlier?  Or  that’s  your  only 
dealings  with  someone  Russian. 

MR.  PRINCE:  They  said  any  Russian  national  that  you  communicated 
with.  And  I’m  not  even  sure  that  Mr.  Charlier  is  a  Russian  national, 
but  I  knew  his  office  was  in  Russia.  I  think  it's  --  maybe  even  their 
headquarters  is  in  Russia.  But  most  of  their  operating  is  done  out 




of  London  and  Switzerland.  So  I,  out  of  an  abundance  of  care,  included 
those  emails  in  the  disclosure. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right. 

Anybody  else?  Pete?  Anybody  else  on  our  side? 

All  right.  We'll  yield  to  Mr.  Schiff.  Thank  you. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Now,  Mr.  Prince,  how  did  you  get  to  the  Seychelles?  Were  you 
traveling  on  your  own  plane? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  took  commercial. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  what  carrier  did  you  use? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  probably  used  Etihad. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  travel  alone,  or  did  anyone  accompany  you 

on  the  trip? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Alone. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  meet  anyone  else  in  the  Seychelles  from  your 
company  or  any  other  associates  there? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  I  think  where  we  left  off,  you  were  headed  to  the 
bar.  So  if  you  could  tell  us  what  happened  when  you  arrived  at  the 
bar,  how  you  identified  Mr.  Dmitriev.  Let's  start  there. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  remember  Googling  his  name  and  found  a 
picture  and  found  the  guy  that  looked  like  the  picture. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Now,  does  that  mean  that  the  Prince  or  one  of  his 
delegation  told  you  the  name  of  the  person  they  wanted  you  to  meet? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah.  They  did. 





And  what  did  they  tell  you  about  him? 

That  he  runs  a  -  -  some  kind  of  a  hedge  fund  in  Russia. 
Did  they  say  anything  more  than  this? 


And  what  did  you  learn  when  you  Googled  him? 

That  he  ran  a  Russian  hedge  fund. 

Is  it  a  hedge  fund,  or  is  it  a  state-backed 

investment  bank? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  know.  I  just  looked  at  the  picture  and  found 
the  guy.  I  was  roaming,  so  data  roaming  is  expensive  when  you're 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  did  you,  in  your  --  in  your  quick  review  of  him, 
did  you  learn  whether  the  bank  that  he  was  affiliated  with  was  a 
sanctioned  entity? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  recall  that,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  You  don't  recall  knowing  whether,  before  you  went 
to  talk  with  him,  you  knew  that  his  bank  was  a  sanctioned  entity. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  recall  that,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  was  he  alone  in  the  bar? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  his  wife  was  there. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  tell  us  what  happened  when  you  identified  him 
in  the  bar  based  on  his  Googled  photograph. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  said,  I'm  --  I  gave  him  my  name,  and  I  said,  the 
Emirati  guy  said  I  should  meet  you  while  I ' m  out  here.  And  so  we  talked 
about,  like  I  said,  trade  matters  and  how  the  United  States  and  Russia 




should  be  working  together  to  defeat  Islamic  terrorism.  And  we 
certainly  talked  about  the  prices  of  oil  and  other  basic  mineral 
commodities  and  where  he  thought  the  market  was  going. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Now,  "trade  matters"  can  mean  a  lot  of  different 
things,  particularly  when  you're  talking  to  someone  who  controls  a 
sanctioned  financial  institution.  What,  in  particular,  did  you 
discuss  regarding  trade?  Did  you  discuss  the  fact  that  certain  trade 
was  prohibited  because  of  U.S.  sanctions? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  wasn't  talking  about  trading  with  him.  But  he 
just  --  I  remember  him  saying  how  much  he  wished  trade  would  resume 
with  the  United  States  in  a  normal  way. 


And  did  he  discuss  with  you  why  it  was  not  occurring 

in  a  normal  way? 




Did  he  discuss  sanctions  with  you  at  all? 




What  more  can  you  tell  us  about  what  he  said 

regarding  trade  or  commerce  between  the  United  States  and  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nothing  more  than  that.  Like  I  said  in  my  letter, 
I  remember  telling  him  that  if  Franklin  Roosevelt  could  work  with  Dosef 
Stalin  to  defeat  Nazi  fascism,  certainly  the  United  States  could  work 
with  Vladimir  Putin  to  defeat  Islamic  fascism. 


Okay.  What  else  did  you  discuss? 


That's  all. 


You  said  you  discussed  oil  and  commodity  prices. 




What  did  you  talk  about  with  respect  to  oil  prices? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  anybody  that's  in  the  oil  and  gas  business,  I 
think  they  ask  each  other  if  they  think  the  price  is  going  up  or  down. 
That's  the  --  that's  an  important  number  for  anybody  that's  investing 
in  that  space. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  you  were  talking  simply  idly  about  whether  oil 
prices  were  going  up  and  down? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  guess  talking  --  at  that  point,  mineral  prices 
were  in  a  particular  slump.  And  so  I  think  anybody,  east,  west,  north, 
or  south,  was  feeling  the  pinch  from  that.  So,  yes,  those  are  the  kind 
of  things  we  talked  about. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  discuss  the  impact  of  sanctions  on  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  --  the  ability  to  consummate  oil  or  gas 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  he  express  any  interest  in  doing  business  with 


MR.  PRINCE:  No.  No  reason  to. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  he  express  interest  in  doing  business  with  other 

people  you're  acquainted  with? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  he  bring  up  a  desire  to  have  a  relationship  with 
the  Trump  administration? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 




MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  discuss  establishing  a  channel  of 
communications  with  his  country  that  would  be  discreet? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  discuss  having  any  channel  of  communications 
between  the  United  States  and  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF :  Is  there  anything  more  specific  you  can  tell  us  about 
what  you  did  discuss  with  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  After  your  meeting  in  the  hotel,  your  poolside 
meeting  with  the  Prince  and  his  delegation,  your  dinner  --  was  your 
dinner  alone? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes,  I  believe  it  was. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  your  drinks  with  Mr.  Dmitriev  and  his  wife,  did 
you  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  she  was  there  for  the  first  few  minutes,  and 
then  she  left.  And  then  the  beer  was  done,  meeting  was  over.  And  I 
went  to  the  gym  after  that. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  did  you  leave  the  next  day? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah,  the  next  morning. 

MR .  SCHIFF :  So  the  only  two  meetings  you  had  while  you  were  there 
were  an  hour-long  meeting  with  the  Prince  and  his  delegation  and  an 
approximately  half-an-hour  meeting  in  the  bar  with  Mr.  Dmitriev. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  that's  the  order  of  it,  but  I'm  not  --  yeah. 
Something  like  that. 




MR.  SCHIFF:  After  your  trip  to  the  Seychelles,  or  during  your 
trip  to  the  Seychelles,  did  you  inform  anyone  of  your  meetings? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Inform  anyone?  Who? 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  you  tell  me.  Did  you  tell  anyone  that  you  had 
met  with  the  UAE  delegation,  and  did  you  tell  anyone  that  you  had  met 
with  Mr.  Dmitriev? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  think  so,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  ever  have  a  subsequent  conversation  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  There  was  no  reason  to  be  reporting  to  anyone. 
I'm  --  I  own  my  own  business  and  run  it  accordingly. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  ever  tell  Mr.  Bannon  that  you  had  met  with 
Mr.  Dmitriev? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  don't  think  so. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  ever  tell  Mr.  Bannon  that  you  had  met  with 
the  Prince  and  his  delegation? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That's  possible,  but  I  don't  remember.  There 
would've  been  no  reason  to  report  to  him  who  I  was  meeting  and  where. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  there  was  no  reason  for  him  to  report  to  you 
about  the  meeting  in  New  York,  was  there? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  lust  that  I  remember,  when  Steve  was 
communicating  about  it,  he  said  --  as  it  was  his  first  time  that  he 
ever  met  Mohammed  bin  Zayed,  and  he  said  he  was  a  great  guy.  That's 
the  only  characterization  of  the  meeting  he  gave. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  in  terms  of  whether  after  your  Seychelles 
meeting  you  ever  communicated  back  to  Mr.  Bannon,  "Well,  funny  you 




should  mention  MBZ.  I  just  met  with  him  also." 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don 't  remember.  It  was  not  a  factor,  not  a  salient 
point . 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  ever  communicate  with  anyone  in  The  Trump 
Organization  or  transition  team  that  you  had  gone  to  the  Seychelles 
and  had  a  meeting  with  the  UAE? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  that  I  recall,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  ever  tell  anyone  with  The  Trump  Organization 
or  transition  team  that  you  had  had  a  meeting  with  Mr.  Dmitriev? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  did  not. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  have  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Bannon  in 
preparation  for  your  testimony  today? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Have  you  discussed  your  proposed  testimony  today 
with  anyone? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  have  you  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Again,  to  characterize  it.  Congressman,  Erik 
Prince,  a  private  citizen,  traveled  to  the  Seychelles  to  meet  with  some 
Emirati  people  that  he’d  known  for  a  few  years.  And  while  there,  they 
said,  "Oh,  there's  this  Russian  guy  that's  also  here  to  see  us.  Might 
be  useful  for  you  to  meet  him. "  And  like  I  said,  I  met  him  for  a  maximum 
of  30  minutes,  probably  much  less  than  that  --  because  it  doesn't  take 
me  that  long  to  drink  a  beer  --  in  a  bar.  I  had  no  communication  with 
that  guy  before  then  and  no  communication  with  him  or  any  of  his 




affiliates  since  then. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  I  understand,  Mr.  Prince,  that's  one  perspective. 
Of  course,  it’s  another  perspective  that  you  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  it's  my  perspective  because  I  was  actually 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Yeah,  I  understand.  And  part  of  the  perspective  is 
you  were  invited  potentially  halfway  around  the  world  to  have, 
effectively,  two  meetings.  And  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  I've  gone  a  lot  farther  to  a  lot  worse  places  to  have 
a  much  shorter  meeting  than  that. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Yes,  but  they’re  not  of  interest  to  this  committee; 
this  one  is. 

Did  you  receive  any  followup  from  the  UAE  regarding  the  meeting 
that  you  had  and  the  discussion  you  had  about  bauxite  and  Middle  East 
politics  and  whatever  else  it  was  you  discussed? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  mean,  I've  seen  Emiratis  since  then,  talking  about 
agriculture  opportunities,  oil  and  gas  in  Africa,  those  kind  of  places, 
but  no  specific  followups  to  anything  that  was  discussed  back  in 
January,  no. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  you  were  invited  all  the  way  out  to  the 
Seychelles,  you  had  this  meeting,  and  then  there  is  no  followup  to  the 
Emirati  part  of  the  conversation. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  you  know,  I  think  there  probably  would've  been 
some  co-investment  opportunities,  et  cetera,  but  I  know  the  Emiratis 
were  very  upset  at  the  article  that  came  out  when  The  Washington  Post 




used  the  leaked  unlawful  maskings  of  people  like  me  that  somehow 
miraculously  made  it  to  The  Washington  Post,  and  they  were  upset  at 
the  violation  of  confidence.  And  I  think  at  first  they  thought  that 
I  was  the  leaker.  And  now,  come  to  find  out  through,  I  think,  other 
investigations  of  folks  in  Washington  it's  more  like  people  like  Susan 
Rice  or  other  folks  from  the  Obama  NSC  that  did  that.  So,  yeah. 

And  that  comes  back  to  my  concern  about,  what  is  the  community 
going  to  do  about  unlawful  leaking  and  the  abuse,  the  political  abuse, 
of  the  intelligence  apparatus  that  affects  Americans?  Because  if  we 
actually  want  to  pursue  rule  of  law  and  actually  abide  by  that,  then 
what  are  you  doing  to  prevent  the  illicit  use  of  the  intelligence 
apparatus  by  a  political  party,  particularly  -- 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So,  Mr.  Prince  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  --  particularly  the  previous  one  that  did  that  to 


Because  it  affects  Americans,  because  it  makes  it  harder  when  your 
name  appears  with  a  whole  bunch  of  largely  conjecture  and  nonsense, 
an  illegal  decryption  of  your  name,  it  affects  your  ability  to  do 
banking,  to  do  business,  and  all  the  rest. 

And  so  I'm  really  bothered  by  that,  and  any  American  -- 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So,  Mr.  Prince  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  --  should  be,  particularly  as  Congress  votes  to 
reauthorize  significant  ability  for  the  Intelligence  Community  to  dig 
into  our  lives,  whether  you're  a  private  citizen  or  not,  from  all  the 
electronics  that  you  do. 




MR.  SCHIFF:  So,  Mr.  Prince,  the  Emiratis  communicated  to  you 
that  they  were  upset  that  your  private  meeting  in  the  Seychelles  had 
been  made  -- 


Wound  up  on  the  cover  of  The  Washington  Post. 


And  how  did  they  communicate  that  to  you? 


It  was  a  phone  call. 


And  who  was  the  phone  call  from? 


It  was  one  of  the  members  of  the  --  because  I  was 

calling  to  try  to  get  another  meeting,  and  they  said,  "No,  he's  very 
upset  because  of  this  article  in  The  Washington  Post." 

MR.  SCHIFF:  "He"  meaning  MBZ? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  No,  no.  I  didn 't  talk  to  him  by  phone.  It  was 
one  of  the  people  that  was  scheduling  from  the  royal  court. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  But  when  he  referred,  the  person  who  was  doing  the 
scheduling,  he  was  very  upset,  was  that  person  referring  to  MBZ? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yes. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  he  communicated  to  you  that  MBZ  was  upset  that 
your  private  meeting  in  the  Seychelles  had  become  public. 


Well,  that  it  wound  up  on  the  cover  of  a  newspaper. 



Did  he  communicate  to  you  why  he  was  upset  that  that 

meeting  should  be  made  public? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  think  people  should  expect  a  certain  amount 
of  privacy  in  their  business  dealings,  and  to  have  it  abused  by  the 
intelligence  apparatus  is  not  right. 




MR.  SCHIFF:  Were  they  upset  that  your  meeting  with  Mr.  Dmitriev 
was  made  public? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  They  were  only  upset  that  the  meeting  with  them  was 
made  public  but  not  the  meeting  with  the  Russian  banker  that  they  had 
helped  arrange. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Didn't  go  into  that  much  detail,  lust  that  there 
was  an  article  that  appeared  in  The  Washington  Post. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Mr.  Himes. 

MR.  HIMES:  Thank  you. 

Thank  you  for  being  here,  Mr.  Prince. 

The  one  topic  on  which  you’ve  gotten  quite  animated  and  expansive 
about  today  is  of  profound  interest  to  this  committee  and  one  of  the 
legs  of  our  four-legged  stool  of  investigation. 

You've  made  some  assertions  that  I  really  want  to  explore  a  little 
bit.  You  characterized  The  Washington  Post  as  clearly  having  been 
based  on  SIGINT  intercepts.  You've  suggested  that  the  former 
administration  was  responsible.  You've  named  members  of  that 
administration . 

I  closely  reread  the  Washington  Post  article  as  you  were  speaking, 
and  I  looked  at  the  sourcing.  And  the  sourcing  says,  "according  to 
U.S.,  European,  and  Arab  officials, "  "according  to  officials, "  and  then 
"according  to  U.S.,  European,  and  Arab  officials,  who  spoke  on 
condition  of  anonymity  to  discuss  sensitive  matters." 

So  since  The  Washington  Post  has  not  shared  with  this  committee 




any  of  the  background  on  their  sourcing,  I'm  wondering  if  you  have 
specific  evidence  that  the  sources  for  this  story  came  from  SIGINT, 
which  was  your  assertion  previously. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  there's  been  plenty  of  talk  of  unmasking  and 
of  senior  officials  in  the  Obama  NSC  that  were  asking  for  unmasking 
of  a  lot  of  intercepts. 

MR.  HIMES:  Yeah,  I  know  there's  been  plenty  of  talk  about  a  lot 
of  things,  some  of  which  is  substantiated,  some  of  which  isn't. 

My  question  to  you  was  --  you  made  a  pretty  bold  assertion, 
including  an  accusation  against  the  former  administration  and  specific 
individuals.  So  my  question  to  you  is,  do  you  have  any  particular 
specific  evidence  to  back  the  assertion  that  the  sources  of  The 
Washington  Post  came  from  SIGINT  which  was  inappropriately  unmasked, 
that  that  SIGINT  was  collected  under  the  702  authorities?  Do  you  have 
any  specific  evidence  to  substantiate  the  charges  you  have  made  here 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  unless  The  Washington  Post  has  somehow 
miraculously  recruited  the  bartender  of  a  hotel  in  the  Seychelles,  the 
only  way  that's  happening  is  through  SIGINT. 

MR.  HIMES:  Well,  I  don't  think  that's  right.  I  mean,  again, 

if  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  If  it  walks  like  a  duck  and  quacks  like  a  duck,  it’s 
a  duck. 

MR.  HIMES:  So,  again.  The  Washington  Post  says  "according  to 
U.S.,  European,  and  Arab  officials."  It  is  possible  that  one  of  the 




Emiratis  who  arranged  this  meeting  might  have  been  a  source.  It's 
possible  that  the  Russian  might  have  been  a  source.  It's  possible  that 
the  bartender  might  have  been  a  source. 

I'm  asking  you  whether  --  I'm  not  asking  for  your  deductions  or 
your  conclusions.  I'm  asking  if  you  have  specific  evidence  to 
substantiate  some  very  serious  accusations  you've  made  here  today  that 
are  of  profound  interest  to  this  committee's  investigation. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I've  been  around  the  Intelligence  Community  long 
enough,  and  if  you've  been  a  member  for  more  than  a  few  years,  you  know 
of  my  relationship  to  that  organization.  I  know  it  came  from  SIGINT. 
And  we'll  leave  it  at  that. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  This  is  an  open  hearing,  but  what  you  just  said 
requires  followup.  And  it  is  the  answer  to  my  question,  which  is,  I 
think,  if  I’m  hearing  you  correctly,  that  you  do  have  specific  evidence 
that  this  was  derived  from  SIGINT.  Is  that  your  testimony? 

MR.  PRINCE:  The  only  way  someone  is  getting  that  granularity  of 
detail  --  because  I’m,  let’s  say,  99.99  percent  sure  that  no  Emirati 
was  calling  The  Washington  Post  to  report  on  that  meeting,  okay?  And 
there  was  no  other  U.S.  officials  there. 

MR.  HIMES:  Look,  again,  I’m  not  asking  for  a  process  of 
elimination.  I'm  asking  a  very  simple  question,  which  is,  do  you  have 
specific  evidence  that  this  story  was  derived  from  SIGINT? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  But  I  would  imagine  this  committee  could  find 
that  evidence  if  they  actually  subpoenaed  who  unmasked  any  of  the 
intercepts  -- 




MR.  HIMES:  Yeah.  Thank  you. 

MR.  PRINCE:  --  made  in  that  area. 

MR.  HIMES:  I  appreciate  that. 

MR.  PRINCE:  So  I  would  encourage  you  to  do  your  job  and  dig  into 
that,  please. 

MR.  HIMES:  Well,  I  can  promise  you  that  this  committee  is  doing 
its  job,  including  having  interviewed  two  of  the  --  or  at  least  one 
of  the  individuals  that  you  named  before,  former  National  Security 
Advisor  Susan  Rice. 

There  has  also  been  talk,  as  you  said,  that  perhaps  Samantha  Power 
might  have  been  one  of  the  unmasking  officials.  This  committee  will 
come  to  a  conclusion  as  to  whether  their  testimony  indicated  that  that 
is  true  or  false. 

But  since  you  raised  those  two  names,  I'm  going  to  ask  you  the 
same  question,  which  is,  having  raised  those  names  in  a  transcript  which 
will  be  made  public,  it's  very  important  that  you  tell  this  committee 
whether  you  have  specific  evidence  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  with  me  today.  No,  I  do  not. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  So,  not  with  you  today,  but  I'm  going  to  ask 
that  question  more  expansively.  Do  you  have  specific  evidence  today 
or  not  with  you  today  that,  in  fact,  Susan  Rice  or  any  other  Obama 
administration  official  engaged  in  improper  unmasking? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  have  spoken  to  enough  very  experienced  people  in 
the  Intelligence  Community  that  they,  too,  deduced  from  their 
experience  --  and  perhaps  they  have  that  evidence  themselves,  but  they 




are  people  that  I  have  confidence  in  that  said  the  only  way  that 
deduction  came  is  from  SIGINT. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  So  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Unmasking  of  -- 

MR .  HIMES :  I  don ' t  think  either  one  of  us  are  lawyers ,  but  I  think 
the  answer  to  the  question  of  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Most  definitely  not. 

MR.  HIMES:  --  whether  you  have  specific  evidence  is  no.  And, 
again,  I'm  not  a  lawyer,  but  what  I  think  I  just  heard  you  describe 
is  hearsay.  Would  you  agree  with  that?  You  spoke  to  some  people  who 
deduced . 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  let's  just  say  they’re  people  I  trust,  that 
America  has  trusted  for  30-plus  years  of  their  careers  with  some  of 
the  most  sensitive  work  -- 

MR.  HIMES:  And  did  they  have  --in  those  conversations  that  you 
had,  did  they  have  specific  evidence  that,  in  your  mind,  proved  those 
allegations,  or  were  they  just  sort  of  speculating? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  they  had  specific  --  they  had  specific 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Can  you  tell  us  who  those  individuals  are? 
Because  -- 



--  this  committee  will  need  to  see  that  evidence. 

Why  not? 




MR.  PRINCE:  It's  not  --  I’m  not  going  to  name  their  names  in  an 
open  forum. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  But  what  I  just  heard  you  say  is  very 
important,  which  is  that  you  know  people  within  the  Intelligence 
Community  that  have  specific  evidence  that  specific  individuals 
improperly  unmasked.  Is  that  your  testimony? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  So,  obviously,  this  committee  will  need  to  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  They ' re  people  that  I  believe.  And,  again,  the  only 
way  -- 

MR.  HIMES:  Again,  I’m  not  asking  about  your  beliefs.  I'm 
asking,  and  you  answered  yes,  that  you  know  individuals  who  have 
specific  evidence  incriminating,  essentially,  members  of  the  former 
administration . 

And  I'm  not  going  to  pursue  this  because  we're  in  open  session, 
but  you  can  count  on  us  to  follow  up  on  your  assertion  that  there  are 
individuals  in  the  Intelligence  Community  that  have  evidence  to  that 
effect . 

MR.  PRINCE:  Former  members  of  the  Intelligence  Community,  yes. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Thank  you.  I  appreciate  that. 

Now,  you  also,  at  a  very  sensitive  moment  for  the  702  collection 
authority,  have  testified  today  that  you  believe  that  the  supposed 
unmasking  that  will  be  followed  up  upon  came  from  collection.  You 
weren't  sure  about  SIGINT.  That  was  something  you  testified  was  a 
process  of  elimination  on  your  part.  But  you  asserted  that  it  was  702 





Do  you  have  specific  evidence  that  the  sources  here  came  from 
702-derived  collection? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  I'm  not  familiar  --  I'm  not  that  familiar  with 
the  detail  at  all. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Thank  you. 




[4:14  p.m.] 

MR.  HIMES:  I  wanted  to  ask  a  question  following  up  on  Mr. 
Schiff’s  line  of  questioning. 

Very  specific  to  the  end  of  the  meeting  with  Mr.  Dmitriev.  It's 
pretty  --  I've  been  in  a  lot  of  business  meetings.  It’s  pretty  typical 
at  the  end  of  a  meeting  to  sort  of  raise  or  query  the  possibility  of 
followup.  In  other  words,  "I'll  see  you  later,"  "I’ll  send  you  this," 
"Well,  let's  do  that." 

Was  there  any  sort  of,  even  as  a  sort  of  matter  of  pleasantry, 
agreement  at  the  end  of  that  meeting  to  follow  up  in  any  way,  shape, 
or  form? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  not  even  phone  numbers  were  exchanged. 

MR.  HIMES:  So  you  just  shook  hands,  parted.  No  followup  of  any 
kind  discussed? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  actually  looked  around.  I  didn't  find  any 
business  card.  Maybe  I  did  receive  one,  but  I  looked,  and  I  couldn't 
find  one.  So  --  and  I  can  assure  you  there  was  no  followup  after  that. 

MR.  HIMES:  So  help  me  reconcile,  and  then  I '  m  going  to  get  --I'm 
going  to  move  on  to  some  other  meetings  that  are  of  interest. 

I  guess  I'm  puzzling  over  --  like  Mr.  Schiff,  I'm  sort  of  confused 
that  an  individual  would,  any  individual  would  sort  of  fly  a  long  way 
for  a  meeting,  agree  to  meet  casually  with  somebody  over  a  beer.  When 
it  was  all  said  and  done  at  the  end  of  that  day  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  no,  let  me  clarify.  I  didn’t  fly  there  to  meet 
any  Russian  guy. 




MR.  HIMES:  I  understand.  You  know,  your  testimony  is  clear. 

MR.  PRINCE:  But  you  characterized  that  I  did,  so  I'm  just 
clarifying  that. 

MR.  HIMES:  Sorry,  understood.  That's  clear.  You  flew  there, 
and  I  guess  this  is  a  question.  In  your  letter  to  the  Senate,  you  said 
you  traveled  to  Seychelles  to  meet  with  some  potential  customers  from 
the  UAE.  But  you  testified  to  us  today  that  you  came  because  his 
Highness  wants  to  speak  with  you. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah,  to  talk  about  potential  -- 

MR.  HIMES:  Help  me  reconcile  this. 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  no,  to  talk  about  potential  business,  whether 
it's  construction,  minerals,  energy  exploration,  that  whole  host  of 
stuff,  and  to  exchange  ideas  on  how  to  put  out  all  of  these  fires  of 
terrorism  and  insurgency  in  the  Middle  East. 

MR.  HIMES:  I  guess  what  I'm  getting  at  is,  if,  in  fact,  what  you 
testified  today,  this  meeting  was  to  sit  with  the  Crown  Prince  of  an 
important  United  States  ally  and  a  very  wealthy  nation,  who  essentially 
summoned  you,  I'm  not  sure  I  would  have  used  this  language  in  the  letter 
to  the  Senate,  "some  potential  customers.”  It  just  strikes  me  as  a 
little  discordant. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Why? 

MR.  HIMES:  Well,  I  just  wouldn't  characterize  the  Crown  Prince 
of  a  monarchy,  a  key  U.S.  ally,  as  a  "potential  customer. "  That  doesn't 
shake  you  as  odd? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  wasn't  there  in  an  official  capacity.  I  was  there 




to,  hopefully,  do  commerce.  So  you  do  commerce  with  customers. 

MR.  HIMES:  So,  at  the  end  of  the  meeting,  and  then  I’ll,  time 
permitting.  I’ll  just  move  on  to  some  other  meetings. 

You  have  gone  a  long  way,  spent  a  fair  amount  of  money.  You  had 
two  meetings  which  I  would  characterize  --  you  sort  of  suggest  they 
are  casual,  almost  social  in  nature,  no  particular  agenda,  no 
particular  followup. 

What  was  your  frame  of  mind  when  all  was  said  and  done?  You  spent 
a  fair  amount  of  money,  spent  a  fair  amount  of  time,  and  really  nothing 
other  than  pleasantries  occurred  in  that  hour-and-a-half  period.  But 
what  did  you  think  about  it? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  would  say  that  some  of  the  deals  were  possible 
and  were  moving  towards  that.  And  then  this  article  comes  out  in  The 
Washington  Post,  and  it  certainly  upset  the  Emiratis,  and  that  shut 
it  off. 

So  I  wouldn't  characterize  it  as  flying  all  the  way  there  for 
pleasantries.  It  was  there  to  talk  about  potential  commerce,  and  then 
that  leak  and  subsequent  publication  in  The  Washington  Post  put  that 
to  an  end. 

MR.  HIMES:  So  there  was  some  specific  followup  with  respect  to 
the  UAE  meeting  that  -  -I'm  sorry;  I  may  have  misunderstood  you,  but  can 
you  --  was  there  specific  followup  associated  with  the  meeting  with 

MR.  PRINCE:  Specific  followup  as  in  --  what  do  you  mean? 

MR.  HIMES:  Well,  you  made  reference  just  now  to  business 




possibilities  that  were  foreclosed  by  the  Washington  Post  story. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct,  any  and  all  was  foreclosed  by  the  leak. 

MR.  HIMES:  Last  question  on  the  meeting  with  Dmitriev,  a  fairly 
striking  statement  that  you  put  in  your  statement  to  the  Senate:  I 
remember  telling  him  that  if  Franklin  Roosevelt  could  work  with  losef 
Stalin  to  defeat  Nazi  fascism,  certainly  Donald  Trump  could  work  with 
Vladimir  Putin  to  defeat  Islamic  fascism. 

Was  that  a  statement  that  you  made  in  response  to  a  question  that 
Mr.  Dmitriev  asked? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  know.  It  kind  of  summarizes  my  attitude 
towards  Russia.  I  think  we  could  certainly  agree  to  --  we  can 
vehemently  disagree  with  them  on  Ukraine  and  some  of  their  other 
activities,  but  at  least  on  the  matter  of  Islamic  fascism,  like  I 
said  -- 

MR.  HIMES:  I  guess  what  I’m  trying  to  get  at  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Franklin  Roosevelt,  for  all  of  the  atrocities  -- 

MR.  HIMES:  No,  it's  okay. 

MR.  PRINCE:  --  for  the  22  million  Ukrainians  killed  by  the  -- 

MR.  HIMES:  So,  let  me  --  let  me,  what's  really  --  I  got  you 
there.  What  I'm  trying  to  do  here  is,  since  Mr.  Dmitriev  is  not  here, 
I'm  trying  to  get  your  belief  around,  perhaps,  what  his  objective  was 
for  the  meeting. 

So  when  you  make  a  statement,  which  is  a  perfectly  reasonable 
statement,  I'm  wondering  if  he  asked  a  question  which  elicited  that 
statement  or  what  prompted  you.  Again,  this  is  not  about  what  you  said. 




It  is  about  the  context  and  what  his  frame  of  mind  might  have  been. 

MR .  PRINCE :  Oh,  we  were  talking  about  the  endless  war  and  carnage 
in  Iraq  and  Syria.  And  I  remember  summing  up  what  I  said  to  him  by 
that:  If  Franklin  Roosevelt  can  work  with  Joseph  Stalin  after  the 
Ukraine  terror  famine,  after  killing  tens  of  millions  of  his  own 
citizens,  we  can  certainly  at  least  cooperate  with  the  Russians  in  a 
productive  way  to  defeat  the  Islamic  State. 

MR.  HIMES:  And  how  did  Mr.  Dmitriev  respond  to  that  statement? 

MR.  PRINCE:  He  agreed  to  that. 

MR.  HIMES:  Let  me,  because  we  have  limited  time,  but  I'll  yield 
the  last  minute  and  a  half  to  Mr.  Schiff. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  When  you  went  to  find  Mr.  Dmitriev  in  the  bar  and 
you  introduced  yourself  to  him,  did  he  indicate  that  he  was  expecting 
you  to  come  by? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  it  wasn't  a  cold  call,  so  I  think  he  must  have 
met  with  the  Emiratis  after  I  did,  and  they  must  have  said:  Hey,  this 
guy  Erik  might  approach  you  at  the  bar. 

MR.  SCHIFF :  So  the  Emiratis  had  at  some  point,  either  before  your 
meeting  with  the  Emiratis  or  after,  the  Emiratis  had  informed  Mr. 
Dmitriev  that  you  would  likely  be  meeting  him  as  well? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  they  mentioned  to  me:  Hey,  this  guy,  this 
Russian  guy  that  deals  in  commodities  in  emerging  markets  would  be  a 
useful  guy  for  you  to  meet  potentially  for  stuff  in  the  future.  So, 
yes . 

And  that's  --  and  I  would  imagine  they  mentioned  the  same  thing 




that,  you  know,  this  guy  Erik  who  deals  in  emerging  markets  and  looks 
for  minerals  and  oil  and  gas  in  remote  places.  So  that's  why  they  --  I 
guess  that's  why  they  arranged  that  meeting. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  in  terms  of  the  quote  that  Mr.  Himes  asked  you 
about,  did  that  come  about  because  of  anything  Mr.  Dmitriev  said  about 
what  he  hoped  the  Trump  relationship  with  Russia  would  be? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  That  was,  you  know,  as  part  of  the  20  to 
30  minutes  of  conversation.  Certainly,  Iraq  and  Syria  was  burning 
hot,  and  I  summarized  my  perspective  on  that  by  telling  him  that  --  what 
my  opinion  was,  not  in  any  way  --  anyone  else's  opinion,  and  certainly 
the  United  States  Government's  opinion  of  any  outgoing  or  incoming 
administration . 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Mr.  Chairman,  before  we  conclude,  I  just  want  a 
point  of  order.  The  witness  has  refused  to  answer  a  question  from  Mr. 
Himes  as  to  who  provided  him  sensitive  information.  I  would  ask  that 
you  direct  the  witness  to  answer  that  question  because  we  set  the  terms, 
not  the  witness. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Right.  We  are  in  open  session,  and  so  if  we 
are  in  a  better  --  in  a  more  appropriate  session,  we  will  explore  that. 

So  we  are  going  to  stand  in  recess  until  after  votes.  We  have 
got  four  votes,  Mr.  Prince.  We  should  be  back  by  hopefully  5  o'clock. 
We  are  standing  in  recess. 

[Recess . ] 

[5:04  p.m.] 




CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right.  The  hearing  will  reconvene.  Our 
side  has  no  questions  at  this  stage.  So  I  will  recognize  the  minority 
for  30  minutes. 


MR.  SCHIFF:  Mr.  Himes. 

MR.  HIMES:  Thank  you. 

And  thank  you,  Mr.  Prince,  for  staying  with  us. 

I  want  to  take  some  time  now  just  to  go  through  a  bunch  of  other 
meetings  that  we  haven't  talked  about,  and  if  you  weren't  attending 
or  if  you  don't  know  anything  about  them,  we  can  move  through  them 
quickly.  If  you  have  knowledge,  we  will  spend  a  little  bit  more  time 
on  them.  But  let  me  just  run  through  a  couple  specific  meetings. 

March  2016,  there  is  a  campaign  foreign  policy  meeting  with 
candidate  Trump.  It  doesn't  appear  that  you  were  there,  but  were  you 
at  that  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  Were  you  invited? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  --  you're  saying  it  today  is  the  first  I've  ever 

heard  of  it. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  So  this  March  2016,  it  has  gotten  some 
publicity  in  the  paper.  You  weren't  there  or  invited? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  knew  nothing  of  it,  was  not  in  attendance. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Moving  on  then  to  the  April  27,  2016, 
Mayflower  Hotel  event.  Again,  it  has  gotten  a  fair  amount  of  press 




MR.  PRINCE:  No  idea.  Wasn't  there. 

MR.  HIMES:  Didn't  attend? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Had  nothing  to  do  with  it. 

MR.  HIMES:  You  were  not  involved  in  planning,  attending, 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  No  involvement  whatsoever  with  the  April  27th 
Mayflower  Hotel  event?  Is  that  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  is  correct. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Moving  on  chronologically.  Duly  18  through 
21,  2016,  the  Republican  Convention.  Did  you  participate  in  any 
discussions  with  the  Trump  campaign,  or  any  Republican  officials 
regarding  the  Republican  Party  platform  at  the  convention? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Any  recommendations  with  respect  to  how  the 
event  should  proceed?  Anything  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  So  no  recommended  changes  to  anything 
regarding  Russia  or  Ukraine? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said,  zero. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Where  were  you  during  the  convention? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  at  the  convention. 

MR.  HIMES:  Not  at  the  convention. 

You  were  asked  this  question  about  the  campaign.  Let  me  ask  the 
same  question  about  the  transition.  In  the  campaign,  you  said  no 




official  role,  kind  of  some  unofficial  stuff  that  you  detailed.  The 
Trump  transition,  did  you  have  any  official  role  or  unofficial  role 
in  the  transition  team? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  You  testified  earlier  that  you  met  Mr.  Trump  once 
at  a  photo-op  event.  I  think  that's  what  you  said.  Any  other  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct.  That's  the  only  time  I  ever  met  him  while 
he  was  candidate  Trump. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Did  you  --  okay.  Thank  you.  So  the 
follow-on  question  is:  Did  you  ever  then  meet  with  President-elect 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  met  him  briefly  for  another  photo-op  at  a 
post-election  holiday  party  in  --  that  was  December  of  2016. 




What  was  the  location? 



New  York. 



New  York. 

Do  you  recall  anything  about  where 

specifically  it  was,  who  sponsored  it,  anything  along  those  lines? 

MR.  PRINCE:  It  was  a  big  holiday  party,  and  he  walked  in,  and 
I  had  a  picture  taken  with  him,  and  that  was  it. 

MR.  HIMES:  Any  --  any  communication  with  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nothing  significant,  no,  other  than 
"Congratulations,"  and  "We're  really  glad  you  won." 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  At  that  event,  did  you  have  any  contact  --  and 
let  me  just  run  through  a  couple  of  individuals  --  with  Dared  Kushner? 
MR.  PRINCE:  From  when  to  when? 




MR.  HIMES:  At  this  particular  event. 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  What  about  during  the  transition? 

MR.  PRINCE:  At  the  couple  of  times  I  was  up  at  Trump  Tower,  I 
was  introduced  to  him  briefly  in  the  hallway,  but  nothing  more  than 
an  introduction,  and  that's  it.  So  I've  never  had  any  substantive 
policy,  foreign  policy,  any  kind  of  conversations  other  than  beyond 
an  exchange  of  names. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  So  those  meetings  you  said  a  couple  of  times 
at  Trump  Tower.  That  was  during  the  transition? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah,  that  would  have  been  December  of  2016. 

MR.  HIMES:  Can  you  tell  us  about  the  circumstances  of  those 
couple  of  times  at  Trump  Tower,  what  the  purpose  of  those  meetings  were, 
and  who  you  met  with? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  had  other  business  in  New  York.  I  met  with  Steve 
Bannon  and  that  --  yeah,  in  that  case,  I  was  making  --  dropping  off 
some  Middle  East  foreign  policy  --  policy  papers,  things  that  America 
should  do  differently  than  what  we  had  been  doing. 

MR.  HIMES:  So  that  sounds  consistent  to  what  you  were  doing 
during  the  campaign.  You  said  you  produced  some  papers, 
similar  --  similar  stuff? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Dropped  them  off,  yes. 

MR.  HIMES:  So  you  said  a  couple  of  meetings.  That  was  one 
meeting  with  Steve  Bannon.  What  was  the  other  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  was  --  I  think  it  was  a  total  of  two  times  that 




I  probably  saw  him  in  that  period. 


So  two  meetings  with  Steve  Bannon  in  New  York  at  Trump 

Tower  during  the 



It  might  have  been  in  November.  It  might  have  been 

in  December. 


Okay.  It  is  post-election,  pre-inauguration? 


Yes . 


Two  meetings  with  Steve  Bannon  in  Trump  Tower? 


I  think  so. 


Any  other  attendees  at  either  of  those  meetings? 


Not  that  I  recall,  no. 


Not  Paul  Manafort? 


No,  never  met  him. 


Mr.  Gates. 




Rick  Gates. 


I  don't  know  who  that  is. 


Okay.  You  don't  recall  other  attendees  other  than 

Steve  Bannon  at  those  two  meetings? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Can  you  just  elaborate  a  little  bit ?  You  said 
you  dropped  off  some  documents.  Can  you  just  elaborate,  tell  us  how 
long  those  meetings  were,  and  any  other  topics  of  conversation? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  would  say  maximum  5,  10  minutes,  talking  about  the 
amount  of  waste  in  U.S.  foreign  policy  and  defense  spending,  ways  to 




cut  it,  ways  to  be  more  effective  and  efficient,  the  same  kind  of  stuff 
I've  given  plenty  of  interviews  on  TV  and  written  op-eds  about  in  the 
various  papers. 

MR.  HIMES:  You  testified  earlier  that  Mr.  Bannon  gave  you  a 
heads-up  on  the  meeting  in  Trump  Tower  with  the  individuals  from  the 
UAE.  Was  that  at  either  of  these  meetings,  or  was  that  a  separate 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember. 

MR.  HIMES:  So  it  might  have  been  at  one  of  these  two  meetings? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  really  know. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  The  reason  I  ask  is  because  I  guess  this 
meeting  that  I'm  asking  about  was  a  December  2016  meeting  with  the  UAE 
officials  and  you  were  saying  this  was  November  and  possibly  December? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  the  election  was  in  early  November,  and  the 
inauguration  was  January  20,  so  it  was  a  couple  of  meetings  at  some 
point  in-between  there  --  not  on  Christmas  Day  and  not  on  New  Year’s 
Day  or  Thanksgiving  Day. 

MR.  HIMES:  So  just  to  be  clear,  two  meetings  in  Trump  Tower 
during  the  transition  with  Steve  Bannon,  neither  of  which  lasted  more 
than  5  or  10  minutes? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  HIMES:  Did  Mr.  Bannon  make  any  requests  of  you  in  those 

MR.  PRINCE:  He  may  have  asked  my  opinion  on  U.S.  policy  in 
Afghanistan,  why  we  are  failing.  Those  are  the  only  requests  would 




be  questions  of:  What  do  you  think  of  this  U.S.  foreign  policy 
challenge  in  whatever  country  it  might  be? 

MR.  HIMES:  Did  the  topic  of  Russia  ever  come  up  in  either  of  those 
two  meetings? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  Did  Mr.  Bannon  inquire  in  either  of  those  meetings 
whether  you  might  have  an  interest  in  being  a  member  of  the 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  Did  you  do  anything  or  say  anything  to  Mr.  Bannon 
beyond  the  sort  of  provision  of  advice  that  you  have  described.  Middle 
East,  how  to  do  the  conflicts  there  differently? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  I  want  to  come  back  quickly  to  the  transition,  but 
in  order  to  kind  of  keep  the  chronology  flowing  on  these  meetings, 
December  2016,  there's  again  been  a  lot  of  press  reporting  about  a 
meeting  between  Dared  Kushner,  Michael  Flynn,  with  Russian  Ambassador 
Sergei  Kislyak  at  Trump  Tower. 

Did  you  attend  that  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  Were  you  invited? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  HIMES:  Do  you  have  any  direct  or  indirect  knowledge  of  that 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero. 




MR.  HIMES:  Did  anybody  talk  to  you  about  it? 

MR.  PRINCE:  What  part  of  zero  do  you  not  understand?  Zero. 

MR.  HIMES:  December  2016,  again,  this  press  reporting  around  a 
meeting  that  Jared  Kushner  held  with  Russian  Bank  Chairman  Sergey 
Gorkov  of  VEB.  Did  you  attend  that  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  HIMES:  Were  you  invited? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero.  I  was  not  attended,  have  no  knowledge. 
Period . 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Next  question.  Let's  stop  wasting  time. 

MR.  HIMES:  It's  important,  I  think,  that  we  get  clear  answers 
to  specific  questions.  So  if  you'll  just  bear  with  us  on  that.  Some 
of  it  will  feel  repetitive,  but  we  don't  want  ambiguity  in  the  record 

All  right,  we  covered  the  December  2016  UAE  meeting  and  spent  time 
on  Seychelles.  One  more  meeting,  but  let  me  come  back  to  the 

Can  you  describe  contact  or  a  relationship  that  you  had  with 
Anthony  Scaramucci  during  the  transition? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  I  met  him  passing  in  a  hallway  one  time. 

MR.  HIMES:  During  the  transition? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Uh-huh. 

MR.  HIMES:  And  when  you  say  "met,"  that's  when  you  made  his 
acquaintance?  You  had  no  contact  with  him  prior  to  that? 




MR.  PRINCE :  Correct. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  What  was  the  subject  of  your  conversation  with 


MR.  PRINCE:  It  was  an  exchange  of  names,  and  that  was  it.  No 
other  policy  discussion  in  any  way,  shape,  or  form. 

MR.  HIMES:  Was  there  any  --  was  there  any  discussion  at  any  point 
with  Anthony  Scaramucci  with  regard  to  any  of  the  meetings  I  just  talked 
about  or  about  a  meeting  that  I  haven't  asked  you  about,  which  was  the  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero. 

MR.  HIMES:  No  discussion  of  any  meeting  with  Mr.  Scaramucci? 

MR.  PRINCE:  We  exchanged  names,  and  that’s  it.  Next. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  So  I've  asked  you  about  a  series  of  specific 
meetings  and  a  bunch  of  specific  people.  So  let  me  ask  a  catchall 
question  here  since  you  like  answering  these  questions  in  categorical 

Did  you  meet,  during  the  transition,  meet  or  talk  with  anybody 
that  you  understood  to  be  directly  or  indirectly  involved  in  the 
transition  prior  to  the  inauguration? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  Steve  Bannon  was.  Certainly. 

MR.  HIMES:  Beyond  Steve  Bannon,  which  we've  talked  about. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Look,  in  a  transition  office,  there's  lots  of  people 
walking  around,  whether  it's  people  interviewing  for  jobs,  looking  for 
a  job,  or  what.  So  I  told  you:  I  ran  into  Anthony  Scaramucci.  He 
was  introduced  to  me,  and  that  was  it. 

My  purpose  for  going  there  was  to  drop  off  some  policy  suggestions 




to  Steve  Bannon,  and  that’s  who  I  had  contact  with.  That's  the  only 
person  I  discussed  any  policy  with. 

MR.  HIMES:  Okay.  Great,  thank  you.  I  will  yield  back  to  Mr. 
Schiff . 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Ms.  Speier. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chair. 

And  thank  you,  Mr.  Prince,  for  being  here. 

I  have  a  couple  of  just  isolated  questions,  and  then  I  want  to 
speak  to  you  about  your  production  that  you  provided  to  us  today. 
Have  you  been  interviewed  by  Special  Counsel  Mueller? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Do  you  have  a  UAE  passport? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MS.  SPEIER:  How  many  trips  to  Russia  have  you  made? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  have  been  to  Russia  twice  in  my  life. 

MS.  SPEIER:  And  who  paid  for  your  trip  to  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  did. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Did  Mr.  Dmitriev  know  anything  about  you  when  you 
had  that  beer  with  him  in  the  bar? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  don't  think  so. 

MS.  SPEIER:  And  so  he  was  willing  to  have  a  beer  with  you  even 
though  he  knew  nothing  about  you,  and  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Presumably,  he  knew  that  I  was  active  in  the  oil  and 
gas  exploration  and  mineral  space. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Did  he  ask  about  your  sister? 




MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Okay.  All  right. 

So  let's  look  at  the  production  that  you  have  made  here  today. 

So,  to  clarify  for  the  record,  you  produced  immediately  prior  to 
this  interview  23  pages  of  material,  primarily  emails  between  you  and 
an  individual  named  Christophe  Charlier,  who  is  the  chairman  of  the 
board  of  Renaissance  Capital,  which  describes  itself  as  the  emergent 
market  investment  bank  based  in  Moscow. 

Most  of  the  emails  date  from  after  the  President's  inauguration, 
with  most  dating  from  May  to  August  of  2017. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Right.  To  be  clear,  one  is  from  November  2016,  the 
end  of  November  after  the  election,  and  all  of  the  other  ones  are  in 

MS.  SPEIER:  Yes,  and  on  November  23,  it  looks  like,  Mr.  Charlier 
congratulated  you  on  your  sister's  nomination. 

All  right.  You  also  produced  a  cover  letter  with  a  short 
description  of  your  meeting  in  the  Seychelles  on  or  around  January  11, 
2017,  with  Kirill  Dmitriev,  the  chief  executive  of  the  Russian  Direct 
Investment  Fund,  which  is  the  Russian  Government’s  created  sovereign 
wealth  fund. 

You  also  represented  in  your  cover  letter  the  following:  On  or 
around  January  11,  2017,  I  traveled  to  the  Seychelles  to  meet  with  some 
potential  customers  from  the  UAE  for  the  logistics  business  of  which 
I'm  chairman.  After  the  meeting,  he  mentioned  a  guy  I  should  meet  who 
was  also  in  town  to  see  them,  a  Kirill  Dmitriev  from  Russia,  who  ran 




some  sort  of  hedge  fund.  I  met  him  in  the  hotel  bar,  and  we  chatted 
on  topics  ranging  from  oil  and  commodity  prices  to  how  much  his  country 
wished  for  resumption  of  a  normal  trade  relationship  with  the  U.S.A. 
I  remember  telling  him  that  if  Franklin  Roosevelt  could  work  with  Josef 
Stalin  to  defeat  Nazi  fascism,  then  certainly  Donald  Trump  could  work 
with  Vladimir  Putin  to  defeat  Islamic  fascism.  The  meeting  ended  after 
a  maximum  of  30  minutes.  I  had  no  communications  or  dealing  with  him 
or  any  of  his  colleagues  before  or  after  that  encounter  last  January. 

Now  you've  indicated  you  never  received  the  letter  from  the 
committee  asking  for  document  production. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MS.  SPEIER :  That  letter  requested  that  you  produce  for  the 
committee  any  documents  from  any  Trump  organization  or  campaign  figures 
or  related  to  individuals  who  may  otherwise  be  linked  to  the  Russian 
Government  or  companies. 

We  also  asked  that  you  produce  any  emails  or  documents  related 
to  your  travel  to  the  Seychelles,  including  information  that  can  shed 
light  into  the  purpose  and  organization  of  your  visit,  your  meetings 
and  discussions  while  there,  and  any  followup  since. 

I'd  like  at  this  point  to  submit  for  the  record  as  an  exhibit  the 
committee’s  letter  to  Mr.  Prince,  which  we  will  share  with  you  now. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Without  objection. 

[The  information  follows:] 

********  COMMITTEE  INSERT  ******** 




MS.  SPEIER:  Does  that  look  familiar  to  you  at  all? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Never  seen  it. 

MS .  SPEIER:  Is  the  address  to  which  it '  s  addressed  your  address? 

MR.  PRINCE:  It's  an  address  of  a  Hong  Kong  business,  yes.  But, 
certainly,  I  have  a  U.S.  address  as  well  that  I  could  have  been  contacted 
through,  so  there's  probably  a  simpler  way  to  communicate  that. 

MS.  SPEIER:  All  right.  So,  now  that  you  have  that  document,  do 
you  commit  today  to  producing  the  entire  range  of  relevant  documents 
to  this  committee,  including  during  the  2016  election  cycle?  The 
committee's  production  request  is  broad  and  encompasses  any  and  all 
documents  and  material  related  to  travel  arrangements,  planning  for 
it,  and  other  information  relating  to  your  January  11  trip  to  the 
Seychelles,  and  other  travel  and  meetings  of  relevance  as  well. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  your  colleagues  on  the  Senate  side  asked  for 
basically  the  same  thing:  any  communications  of  anything  to  do  with 
Russia  or  Russians  back  to  June,  the  middle  of  June  of  2015.  And  so 
the  document  possession  you  have  in  your  hands  effectively  meets  what 
you’re  requesting  here.  I’d  say  the  only  exception  is  if  I  actually 
go  through  the  hassle  of  finding  a  plane  ticket  that  I  used  to  travel 
to  the  Seychelles. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Well,  we're  also  asking  you  for  information 
regarding  any  communication  you  had  with  The  Trump  Organization  or 
campaign  personnel  or  related  individuals  who  may  otherwise  be  linked 
to  the  Russian  Government  or  companies. 




MR.  PRINCE:  Okay.  Well,  I  will  look  through  and  see  what  might 
be  available  yet. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Let  me  ask  you  this:  We  also  communicated  to  you 
an  Is  you  as 

MR.  PRINCE:  "IR"  would  typically  stand  for  investor  relations. 

It's  a  public  company. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  this  would  not  have  reached  you. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  it  did  not  reach  me,  no. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Okay.  All  right,  you  have  now  agreed  to  provide  us 
that  documentation.  We  thank  you  for  that. 

Let's  go  back  to  these  documents  that  you  have  provided  us.  What 
is  your  relationship  with  Christophe  Charlier. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  as  you  can  see  from  the  emails,  that  he  works 
for  an  investment  bank  that  deals  in  the  emerging  markets  and  does 
mergers,  acquisitions,  debt  and  equity  raising  for  companies  active 
in  that  space. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Well,  how  long  have  you  known  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Probably  4  years. 

MS.  SPEIER:  And  how  did  you  meet  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Maybe  it’s  5.  We  originally  looked  at  him,  at  his 
firm  helping  to  raise  some  equity  for  a  project  in  Africa  5  or  6  years 
ago,  whatever  that  was,  2012-2013. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  did  you  meet  him  in  the  United  States  or  in  Europe 
or  in  Russia. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  met  him  in  Europe. 




MS.  SPEIER:  Okay.  I  presume  it  was  in  one  of  the  cities  in  which 
he  lived. 

The  bulk  of  your  emails  with  Christophe  have  to  do  with  him  being 
named  chairman  of  the  board  of  Renaissance  Capital,  which  is  an  emergent 
market  investment  bank  based  in  Moscow.  So  it  appears  that  he  moved 
his  home  to  Moscow.  Is  that  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MS.  SPEIER:  His  address  is  now  in  Moscow. 

MR.  PRINCE:  The  business  office  is  in  Moscow.  But  the  emerging 
market  deals  are  getting  done  between  London,  Switzerland,  elsewhere 
in  Europe. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Charlier  served  previously  as  deputy  CEO  of  ONEXIM 
Group  owned  by  Russian  oligarch  Mikhail  Prokhorov.  I  may  not  be 
pronouncing  that  right.  Prokhorov.  He  also  happens  to  own  the 
Brooklyn  Nets  basketball  team  and  served  owned  the  board  of  Russia  AI, 
owned  by  Oleg  Deripaska.  What  do  you  know  about  his  involvement  with 
those  companies? 

MR.  PRINCE:  None.  I  mean,  they  own  a  basketball  team  in  the 
United  States. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  when  he  was  deputy  CEO  of  ONEXIM  Group,  you  had 
no  engagement  with  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  might  have  met  him  in  passing,  but  I  had  no  business 
dealings  with  him  at  all. 

MS.  SPEIER:  And  what  do  you  know  about  Renaissance  Capital 
beyond  which  you've  told  us? 




MR.  PRINCE:  Nothing.  I  mean,  as  you  can  see  from  the  emails, 
they're  nothing  but  scheduling  emails  and  to  discuss  a  possible 
engagement  for  them  to  raise  some  debt  or  equity  for  a  project  we  were 
working  on. 

MS.  SPEIER :  So  press  reports  indicate  that  this  firm  has 
employed  a  string  of  former  KGB  spies  and  received  millions  of  British 
pounds  as  part  of  a  giant  fraud  being  investigated  by  Sergei  Magnitsky, 
the  individual  found  dead  in  a  Russian  prison.  Were  you  aware  of  that? 


No.  Christophe  is  the  only  guy  I  ever  met  from  the 



So  Rus  AI  --  or  RUS  AL  maybe  --  owned  by  Oleg 

Deripaska,  do  you  know  about  that  company? 




You  deal  in  aluminum,  do  you  not? 


No,  bauxite. 


Bauxite.  Well,  isn't  bauxite  used  to  make 



Bauxite  is  used  to  make  alumina,  which  is  used  to 

make  aluminum.  It's  is  a  different  piece  of  the  value  chain.  It's 
like  asking  if  somebody  deals  in  high-grade  gasoline  that  also  drills 
for  oil.  It  is  a  different  part  of  the  value  chain. 


So  you  don’t  know  Russia  Al,  even  though  it's  is  the 

largest  aluminum  -- 


It  is  called  RUSAL. 


So  you  do  know  about  it? 




MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  know  what  it  is.  I  know  that  they  are 
consumers  of  alumina,  but  I've  never  had  any  dealings  with  them  as  a 

MS.  SPEIER:  Okay.  Who  is  Cyrus  Behbehani  from  Glencore,  and 
what  is  your  relationship  with  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  He  works  for  Glencore,  and  someone  I  have  talked  to 
before  about  commodities. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  in  this  email  on  June  28,  Charlier  asked  you,  do 
you  ever  interact  with  Glencore?  I  know  someone,  whose  name  is  blotted 
out,  quite  well  as  we  sat  on  the  RUSAL  board  together.  He  could  be 
interested,  acquirer  from  --  for  your  African  businesses.  At  the 
right  time  for  you,  I  would  like  my  team  to  take  a  look  at  these 
businesses  and  see  if  we  can  come  up  with  interesting  ideas. 

And  you  wrote  back,  "I  don’t  know  Ivan,  but  do  you  know,"  and 
that's  referencing  Cyrus  Behbehani.  So  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  He  is  a  Glencore  employee. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Is  he  the  CIO? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Could  be. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Well,  so  he  is  high  ranking  within  the  company.  And 
what  are  your  interactions  with  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Occasional  discussion  of  potential  mineral  sales  or 
commodity  prices. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  you  are  familiar  that  Rosneft  had  sold  a  portion 
of  the  company  to  Glencore? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  have  no  knowledge  of  that  or  dealings  in  that. 




That’s  way  out  of  my  league. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Okay.  So  you  don’t  know  anything  about  Rosneft's 
privatization  sale  to  Glencore  or  other  companies  in  December? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero.  Zero. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Okay.  You  testified  earlier  that,  in  your  meeting 
with  Dmitriev,  he  spoke  about  trade  matters  and  how  the  U.S.  and  Russia 
should  be  working  together.  I  think  those  were  your  words,  and  that 
Dmitriev  wished  trade  would  resume  in  a  normal  way.  Is  that  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  was  his  stated  desire. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  what  did  he  mean  by  "normal  way"? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  know.  You'd  have  to  ask  him. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Well,  didn't  --  so  how  did  you  interpret  what  he 
meant  by  a  "normal  way"?  Lifting  of  sanctions? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  know.  You'll  have  to  ask  him. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  Dmitriev  was  the  head  of  Russian  Direct 
Investments  Fund  at  the  time,  which  is  under  U.S.  sanctions.  Did  you 
not  know  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  didn't  know  that,  no. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So,  knowing  that  now,  is  it  fair  to  say  that  there 
might  have  been  a  relationship  between  him  wanting  to  do  trade  and  the 
lifting  of  sanctions? 

MR.  PRINCE:  You'll  have  to  ask  him  that. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Okay.  On  January  16  --  you  had  met  with  him  on 
January  11  or  around  that  date,  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That's  what  I  said  in  my  letter,  yes. 




MS.  SPEIER:  On  January  17,  Bloomberg  reported  that  Anthony 
Scaramucci,  the  former  White  House  Communications  Director  and  aide 
to  Trump  at  the  time  of  the  report,  met  with  Kirill  Dmitriev,  the  head 
of  Russian  Direct  Investments  in  Davos  on  January  16.  Did  he  reference 
to  you  that  he  was  going  to  Davos? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Didn’t  say  anything  about  it  at  all? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MS.  SPEIER:  Nothing  about  meeting  up  with  Anthony  Scaramucci? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope.  I  say  again,  no. 

MS.  SPEIER:  So  Scaramucci  confirmed  the  meeting  and  in  an 
interview  with  the  Russian  State  news  agency  TASS  on  January  17  said: 
I  think  the  sanctions  had  in  some  way  an  opposite  effect  because  of 
Russian  culture.  I  think  the  Russians  would  eat  snow  if  they  had  to, 
and  so,  for  me,  the  sanctions  probably  galvanized  the  nation  with  the 
nation's  president.  Long-term  sanctions  could  be  painful  had  they 
been  effective  in  other  areas.  In  other  nations,  the  answer  is  yes 
or  otherwise  they  wouldn't  be  using  them  if  they  weren't  effective. 
But  what  I  think  we  had  to  do  now  is  think  outside  the  box. 

So  you  didn’t  have  any  conversation  that  would  talk  to  -- 






And  you  have  no  direct  knowledge  of  that  meeting? 
Like  I  said,  no. 

Okay.  I  think  with  that,  Mr.  Chair,  I  will  yield 

back . 




MR.  SCHIFF:  Mr.  Quigley. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Thank  you. 

The  delegation  you  met  from  the  UAE,  had  you  done  business 
directly  with  them  before? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Where? 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  The  delegation  you  met  in  the  Seychelles. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Right. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Had  you  done  business  with  those  people  before? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  had  attempted  to.  I  had  done  some  small  business, 
but  nothing  --  nothing  significant,  no. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Well,  what  was  the  extent  of  your  business  in  the 
UAE  before  that  meeting  in  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nothing  to  do  with  --  I  can  tell  you  it  had  nothing 
to  do  with  Russia. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  What  was  the  extent  of  the  business  you  were  doing 
in  the  UAE  before  the  meeting  in  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  We  are  here  to  talk  about  your  investigation  into 
Russia  and  the  election.  So  -- 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  It's  just  amazing  how  these  things  all  find  a  way 
to  be  connected.  So  if  you  would  just  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  I  think  you’re  kind  of  stretching  to  try  to  make 
it  all  connected. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Regardless,  the  question  still  stands.  The 
business  you  had  done  in  the  UAE  before  the  meeting  in  the  Seychelles. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said,  we're  here  to  talk  about  --  and  any 




business  I  had  done  with  the  UAE  was  years  before  and  had  ended  by  2011, 
at  the  latest  '12. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  ask  you  respectfully  ask  the 
witness  to  answer. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  The  witness  is  here  on  a  voluntary  basis.  So 
he  is  not  here  under  a  subpoena.  So  if  he  answers,  he  answers;  if  he 
doesn't,  he  doesn’t.  So  hang  on  a  second.  The  gentleman's  time  has 
expired . 

Tom,  do  you  have  anything? 

MR.  ROONEY:  No. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right.  Reset  the  clock.  Thank  you. 

I  ask  unanimous  consent  to  continue  about  30  minute  --  30-minute 


MR.  PRINCE:  Now,  listen,  it's  5:30.  I  haven't  been  home  in  a 
week.  I  flew  in  this  morning  from  Africa,  and  I've  had  about  enough 
of  this.  So  thank  you. 

MR.  SCHIFF :  Are  you  refusing  to  testify  any  f urther,  Mr.  Prince? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I'd  say  the  extent  of  the  questions  is  so  far  outside 
the  scope  of  what  you’re  actually  looking  for  that  I'm  not  here  to 
indulge  your  fishing  expedition  any  longer. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  Mr.  Prince,  you  have  testified  that  you  did 
business  with  the  UAE,  which  you  won't  tell  us  the  nature  of .  You  don  t 
hear  from  the  UAE  about  doing  further  business  for  6  years.  Out  of 
the  blue,  you  are  asked  to  have  a  meeting.  You  travel  halfway  around 
the  world  for  the  meeting,  a  third  of  which  is  with  a  Russian  you  didn't 




know  was  going  to  be  there.  And  you  think  it's  improper  for  us  to  ask 
you  the  nature  of  your  business  with  UAE .  Is  that  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Look,  it's  not  even  the  nature  of  the  questioning. 
The  fact  is  I  have  been  here  for  3-1/2  hours  --  2-1/2  hours,  actually 
3  hours  now.  And  I  haven’t  been  home  in  a  week.  I  came  back  from 
Africa,  arrived  this  morning  to  come  indulge  you  here,  and  I  think  I 
have  indulged  you  enough.  You  have  the  document  production  you  have 
asked  for,  and  there  is  nothing  else  to  see  or  hear. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Are  you  refusing  to  finish  the  hearing,  Mr.  Prince? 
MR.  PRINCE:  I’m  refusing  to  waste  anyone  else's  time. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So  we  will  need  to  subpoena  you  then  and  have  you 


MR.  PRINCE:  Give  me  the  summary,  please,  of  the  questions  you 
think  are  still  valid  to  continue. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Mr.  Prince,  you  are  either  going  to  cooperate  with 
the  committee  or  you  are  not,  and  if  you  are  not,  just  say  so,  and  we 
will  subpoena  you. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Okay.  We  will  go  to  6  o’clock,  and  then  we  will  be 


MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  we  may  not  be  done.  It's  not  up  to  you  to 
decide  how  long  the  hearing  goes  on.  You  may  be  used  -- 
MR.  PRINCE:  It  is,  because  I'm  here  voluntarily. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  You  may  be  used  to  operating  this  way  in  your 
business,  Mr.  Prince. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Sir,  I'm  here  voluntarily  --  I'm  here  voluntarily. 




and  I'm  only  here  because  of  an  illegal  leak  from  the  Intelligence 
Community  that  somehow  miraculously  made  it  into  The  Washington  Post. 
That's  the  only  reason  I'm  here. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Mr.  Quigley. 

And  I  do  want  to  make  sure,  Mr.  Chairman,  before  Mr.  Prince 
departs,  that  we  go  into  closed  session  and  have  him  reveal  the  names 
of  the  individuals  that  allegedly  imparted  this  information  he  referred 
to  earlier. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Let  me  check.  He  is  here  voluntarily  rather 
than  under  subpoena.  Let  me  see  if  the  mechanics  of  the  committee  rules 
will  allow  that.  Perhaps  we  can  have  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Prince 
offline  and  get  those  names.  But  let  me  run  some  traps  on  that  while 
you  guys  finish  up  your  questions. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  In  one  of  the  emails  you  provided  to  us  today, 
Charlier  asked  you  whether  you  developed  relations  with  Mubadala.  But 
there  is  no  response  from  you.  Are  you  familiar  with  Mubadala? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah.  It's  actually  called  Mubadala.  It's  a 
business  entity  in  the  UAE  that  does  everything  from  computer  chips 
to  aluminum  production  to  agriculture,  agribusiness.  So,  yeah,  I  have 
met  with  people  from  Mubadala  before,  sure. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Are  you  still  in  contact  with  them? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  lately,  no. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  When  did  the  first  contact  occur? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Probably  2010. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Was  this  firm  represented  at  the  Seychelles 





MR.  PRINCE:  I  don’t  know. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Was  a  deal  with  this  firm  discussed  at  the 
Seychelles  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  no.  But  I  would  say  bauxite  was,  and  they  have 
an  interest  in  bauxite.  So  that  would  probably  be  the  only  tangential 
overlap  they  have. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Was  that  why  you  included  it  in  terms  of  it  being 
relative  to  the  production  here?  What  was  the  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  No,  because  there  was  communications  with  this 
Christophe  Charlier,  the  investment  banker  with  an  office  in  Russia. 

MR.  QUIGLEY:  Okay.  The  chairman  is  not  here.  I  would  just 
suggest  that  I  have  more  questions  of  a  line  that  the  witness  doesn't 
want  to  answer.  So  I  will  yield  back  to  the  ranking  member. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Mr.  Castro  or  Mr.  Swalwell. 

Mr.  Swalwell? 

Mr.  Castro? 

MR.  CASTRO:  I  will  let  Eric  go,  and  then  I  will  go. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Mr.  Prince,  where  was  the  meeting  with  Mr.  Nunes 
that  you  referenced  with  respect  to  him  mentioning  you  testifying  about 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  went  to  see  him  in  his  office  about  Afghanistan. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When  was  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  don't  know.  I  wrote  an  op-ed  in  The  Wall 
Street  Journal.  I  was  asked  to  come  into  the  White  House  a  couple  of 




times  to  talk  about  that.  And  so  it  was  sometime,  I  don't  know,  over 
the  summer  or  early  fall.  I  don’t  remember. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  How  many  times  have  you  talked  to  Mr .  Nunes,  either 
in  person  or  by  phone,  since  that  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  that's  the  only  time. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  How  did  unmasking  come  up?  Did  he  bring  it  up, 
or  did  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  I  asked  what  the  committee  was  doing  to 
investigate  illegal  leaks  and  illegal  unmasking  of  American  citizens 
doing  business  abroad.  And  he  said:  You  ought  to  come  in  and  talk 
to  the  committee  about  it  sometime. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And  you  testified  earlier  that  individuals  who  had 
formerly  worked  in  the  U.S.  Intelligence  Community  may  have  revealed 
what,  if  true,  would  be  extremely  sensitive  classified  information. 
That  is  an  unauthorized  leak  of  classified  information  to  you,  if  true. 
Is  that  your  testimony  today? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah,  they  described  the  mechanics  of  how  that 
works.  And  certainly  by  deductive  reasoning,  unless  The  Washington 
Post  miraculously  had  recruited  the  bartender  at  a  Seychelles  hotel, 
it  is  amazing  how  they  wound  up  with  that  information. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  I  just  want  to  clarify  that  you  actually  expressed 
earlier  that  it  was  more  than  just  deductive  reasoning;  it  was  specific 
evidence  that  they  had  provided  to  you.  Is  that  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  They  described  who  would  have  the  authorities  to 
unmask  and  how  that  process  works.  And  at  that  time,  for  when  those 




meetings  happened,  it  was  only  Obama  people  in  the  NSC. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And  your  testimony  today  is  that  you  will  not  tell 
us  who  told  you  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I'm  not  going  to  tell  you  in  open  session. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  You  said  that  you  have  traveled  to  Russia  twice. 
When  did  you  go? 

MR.  PRINCE:  1996  and  I  think  in  2010  or  2011. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Why  did  you  go  in  2010  or  2011? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  was  invited  there  to  go  look  at  investment 
opportunities  in  some  real  estate  and  some  of  their  agribusiness 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Who  invited  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  remember.  It  was  an  --  I  would  say  it  was 
a  non  --  a  non-Western  name. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Was  there  any  followup  to  that  meeting? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  make  any  investments  in  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Have  you  ever  made  an  investment  in  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Zero. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Do  you  have  any  business  partnerships  with  any 
Russian  nationals? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Have  any  Russian  nationals  invested  in  any  of  your 




MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  You  mentioned  that  you  have  traveled  to  a  lot  of 
places,  spent  a  lot  of  time  on  airplanes.  Let's  just  limit  it  to  2016 
and  2017.  What  has  been  the  nature  of  your  foreign  travel? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Investment  in  natural  resources,  logistic  support, 
medevac  support,  capital  raising,  business  development. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  go  to  any  of  the  former  Soviet  bloc 
countries  in  that  time? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I've  been  to  the  Ukraine. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When  did  you  go  to  Ukraine? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  I  went  in  2016.  And  they  wanted  --  they  were 
trying  to  entice  someone  to  invest  and  build  a  training  facility  there. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Who  did  you  meet  with  in  Ukraine? 

MR.  PRINCE:  A  guy  named  I  think  Turanov,  Andrey  Turanov. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Who  invited  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Andrey  Turanov. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  How  long  did  you  stay? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  2  days,  3  days. 




[5:44  p . m . ] 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And  what  followup,  if  any,  whether  through 
investment  or  additional  meetings,  took  place  with  Mr.  Turanov? 

MR.  PRINCE:  None. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  meet  with  any  Russian  nationals  while  in 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Any  other  travel  to  any  former  Soviet  Union 
countries  in  2016  or  2017? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  go  to  Italy  at  all  in  2016  or  2017? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Sure. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  How  many  times?  And  when,  if  you  can  recall? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  did  a  bike  trip  there  last  summer. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Was  that  in  Dune,  Duly,  or  August? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Look,  I'm  not  going  to  give  you  my  personal  travel 
dates  to  all  these  places.  It  has  nothing  do  with  what  you're 
investigating  here. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  So  you're  refusing  to  tell  us  when  you  were  in 
Italy  last  summer? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I'm  here  voluntarily,  but  we’re  not  going  on  a 
fishing  expedition  as  to  which  European  countries  I've  traveled  to  on 
vacation . 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  go  to  London  in  2016  or  2017? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Of  course. 




MR.  SWALWELL:  Okay.  When  you  were  in  Italy  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  It's  the  center  of  capital  movement  in  Europe. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When  you  were  in  Italy  in  2016,  did  you  meet  with 
any  foreign  nationals? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  if  I  met  with  an  Italian,  it  would  by 
definition  be  a  foreign  national. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  So  that's  yes. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well  -- 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  meet  with  any  non-Italians? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  had  to  hand  my  passport  to  the  border  police  guy 
to  get  into  the  country .  I  had  to  meet  with  a  foreign  national.  That's 
kind  of  a  --  I'm  sorry,  that's  way  too  open-ended  of  a  question. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Other  than  Italians,  did  you  meet  with  any  foreign 
nationals  in  Italy? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  that  I  remember. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Okay.  How  about  in  London?  Other  than  the 
Brits,  did  you  meet  with  any  foreign  nationals  in  London? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  really  don't  check  passports  of  people, 
but  --  certainly  no  one  that  appeared  to  be  Russian. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  go  to  Budapest  at  all  in  2016  or  2017? 

MR.  PRINCE:  My  book  was  published  in  Magyar,  and  so  I  did  do  a 
book  event  sometime  in  Hungary.  I'm  not  sure  when  that  was. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Could  have  been  2016? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Possibly. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And  other  than  any  Hungarian  -- 




MR.  PRINCE:  I  mean,  I  did  a  lot  of  Hungarian  media,  so  I  guess 
you  could  check  that. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  meet  with  any  foreign  nationals  that  were 
non-Hungarian  when  you  were  in  Hungary  in  approximately  2016? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  that  I  know  of. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  happen  to  go  to  Prague  in  2016  or  2017? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  think  so. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Why  was  the  Seychelles  chosen  by  UAE? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Because  it's  cooler  than  the  UAE? 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Is  that  what  they  told  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Cooler,  different  temperature.  I  don't  know.  I 
mean,  they  --  one  of  them  owns  the  resort  down  there. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Do  you  have  any  accounts  in  the  UAE  --  I'm  sorry. 
Do  you  have  any  accounts  in  the  Seychelles? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Have  you  been  back  to  the  Seychelles  since  that 
trip  in  January? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Other  than  the  Russian  investor,  did  UAE  ask  you 
to  meet  with  any  other  investors  or  bankers? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When  was  the  last  time  you  traveled  overseas  and 
were  asked  to  make  an  unscheduled  meeting  with  a  Russian  banker?  Was 
this  the  first  and  only  time  it's  ever  happened? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  don't  --  I  would  say  that’s  the  --  I  travel 




abroad  a  lot.  I  take  all  kinds  of  unscheduled  meetings.  But,  you 
know,  I  met  Mr.  Charlier,  who  was  a  Russian  investment  banker,  and  this 
other  guy  was  there.  And  I  met  with  him  as  a  matter  of  --  as  a  matter 
of  chance  since  I  was  in  the  Seychelles  anyway. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  But  Mr.  Charlier,  that  was  a  --  when  did  you  meet 


MR.  PRINCE:  Probably  5  years  ago. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Where  did  you  meet  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Mainland  Europe  somewhere. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And  who  introduced  you  to  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  My  colleague. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  So  you  can  recall  at  least  two  times  where  you  were 
traveling  overseas  and,  while  overseas,  an  impromptu  meeting  occurred 
with  you  and  a  Russian. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Sure,  lust  like  I  could  have  impromptu  meetings 
with  a  U.K.  citizen,  a  Polish  citizen,  an  Emirati,  a  Saudi,  a  Qatari, 
you  name  it.  I  meet  a  lot  of  people. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  But  you  didn’t  meet  with  any  of  those  in  that 
January  meeting  other  than  the  Russian  banker.  Is  that  right? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And  when  you  met  with  the  UAE,  this  was  right  after 
the  election  here  in  the  United  States  and  right  before  the 
inauguration.  Did  it  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  it  was  2  months  after  the  election. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  It  was  after  the  election  and  right  before  the 




inauguration.  Did  the  election  come  up  at  all  with  the  UAE? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  brought  it  up,  and  I  said  I  was  mighty  happy  with 
the  results. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  they  know  your  participation  in  the  campaign? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  know. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  they  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  had  certainly  not  been  --  I  had  not  been  private 
about  my  thoughts. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And,  also,  with  the  Russian  who  you  met  afterwards 
at  the  bar  --  again,  it's  2  months  after  the  election,  a  week  before 
the  inauguration.  Did  the  election  or  the  inauguration  come  up  with 
the  Russian? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Other  than  that  I  said  I  think  the  United  States  can 
certainly  work  with  Vladimir  Putin  to  defeat  Islamic  fascism  since 
previously  Franklin  Roosevelt  had  managed  to  do  so  with  Josef  Stalin. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Have  you  ever  met  Donald  Trump,  Jr.? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  have. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  met  him  at  the  --  at  a  campaign  event,  obviously 
before  the  election. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Is  that  the  only  time  you've  met  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  I’ve  seen  him  up  in  --  I  ran  into  him  a  couple 
times  when  I  was  up  there  during  the  transition. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Have  you  seen  him  since  his  father  became 




MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When  you  talked  to  him  during  the  campaign,  did 
you  express  any  of  your  views  on  Russia  or  did  he  ever  express  his  or 
his  father's  views  on  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When  you  met  him  or  engaged  with  him  during  the 
transition  period,  did  you  discuss  your  views  on  Russia  or  did  he 
discuss  with  you  he  or  his  father's  views  on  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  Not  at  all. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  How  about  Keith  Schiller?  Have  you  ever  met  Keith 


I  don't 

:  know  who  that  is. 



you  ever  met  Rhona  Graff? 





you  ever  met  Hope  Hicks? 





you  ever  met  Ivanka  Trump? 





you  ever  met  Michael  Cohen? 


Nope . 



you  ever  met  Doseph  Schmitz? 


Doe  Schmitz? 


Yes . 



He's  a  lawyer  that  used  to  work  for  me. 


Did  you  ever  talk  to  Doe  Schmitz  during  the  2016 





MR.  PRINCE:  Sure. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  ever  talk  with  Mr.  Schmitz  about  the 
campaign's  policy  platform  with  respect  to  Russia? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  think  so,  no. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  How  often  did  you  interact  with  Mr .  Schmitz  during 
the  campaign? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Maybe  twice. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Was  that  in  person  or  by  phone? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Probably  in  person. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  If  you  didn't  talk  about  Russia,  what  was  the 
nature  of  the  conversation? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Reducing  the  horrific  wasteful  spending  of  the  U.S. 
Government  in  its  conduct  abroad.  As  an  inspector  general  at  the 
Pentagon,  that  was  one  of  his  --  that  was  his  main  area  of  focus  and 
certainly  an  area  of  passion  of  his  and  mine. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  You  know  Mr.  Rohrabacher,  Dana  Rohrabacher. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Of  course. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  You  worked  for  him. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  was  an  intern  for  him. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  talk  to  Mr.  Rohrabacher  at  all  during  the 
2016  campaign  about  your  views  on  Russia  or  his  views? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  don't  recall.  No,  I  don't  think  I  did. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  he  ever  discuss  with  you  any  travel  that  he 
took  in  2016  over  to  Russia? 




MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  When  was  the  last  time  you  talked  to 
Mr.  Rohrabacher? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Probably  August  or  September. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Of  2016  or  2017? 

MR.  PRINCE:  2017. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Okay.  Did  you  discuss  the  Presidential  campaign 
at  all? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  at  that  point,  we  were  discussing  how  to  do 
a  much  better  policy  in  Afghanistan  to  stop  blowing  $52  billion  a  year. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Did  you  discuss  Russia  at  all? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  In  2016,  which  --  so,  just  to  summarize,  your 
position  today  is  that  you  had  no  official  role  with  the  campaign.  Is 
that  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That's  correct. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  No  official  role  with  the  transition. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  No  unofficial  role,  in  your  description,  with  the 
campaign.  Is  that  right? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  And  no  unofficial  role,  as  you’ve  described,  with 
the  transition. 

MR.  PRINCE:  I'm  in  no  official  capacity  at  all. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  But  -- 




MR.  PRINCE:  I  am  a  citizen  voter  that  cares  about  the  wrong 
direction  the  country  was  headed  in  and  how  to  change  it,  how  to  put 
it  in  what  I  thought  was  a  better  direction. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  So  how  would  you  describe  the  role  of  a  citizen 
voter  who  wrote  policy  memos  for  a  campaign,  made  multiple  visits  to 
Trump  Tower,  made  six-figure  donations  to  the  campaign,  and  conducted 
a  number  of  meetings  with  the  campaign's  manager? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Someone  who  cares  about  their  country. 

MR.  SWALWELL:  Mr.  Ranking  Member,  I'll  yield  back. 

MR.  SCHIFF :  I've  got  just  a  couple  questions,  and  then  I '  11  yield 
to  Mr.  Castro. 

Mr.  Charlier  --  is  that  how  you  pronounce  his  name? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  think  so. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  --  is  a  Russian  investment  banker?  That's  how  you 
described  him? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  that's  a  French  name.  So  I'm  not  sure  of  his 
citizenship  even,  but  he  works  for  a  firm  that  had  an  office  in  Russia. 
He  was  the  chairman  of  that  firm  --  became  the  chairman  of  that  firm. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  you  explored  with  him,  at  least  according  to  the 
correspondence  in  June  of  last  year,  potentially  doing  business  with 
him  or  his  investment  bank  in  Africa.  Is  that  correct? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Around  bauxite  or  copper  or  other  commodities. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah,  or  the  sale  of  an  upstream  exploration 




MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  Dmitriev  doing  business 
around  bauxite  together  or  other  investments? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Why  was  it  you  would  explore  with  one  Russian 
investment  banker  potential  business  opportunities  but  you  meet 
another  Russian  banker,  who  you  didn't  know  was  under  sanctions  --  why 
wouldn’t  you  have  explored  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Because  he  was  a  big  --  you  described,  they  were 
doing  big,  very,  very  large  deals.  Mr.  Charlier,  from  RenCap,  did 
emerging  markets  and  much  smaller  entrepreneurial-type  deals.  I  mean, 
a  $10  billion,  $20  billion,  $3  billion  hedge  fund  doesn't  do  small 
deals,  lust  like  all  the  big  hedge  funds  in  America  that  were  looking 
at  Africa  funds  have  closed  them  all  since  they  can’t  manage  the 
overhead . 

But,  anyway,  RenCap  focuses  on  small  deals  in  emerging  markets 
in  the  commodity  space  that  we  were  in.  And  the  knowledge  of  this  guy 
came  from  a  colleague  of  mine,  because  I  think  they  went  to  school 
together  back  in  college  for  their  master's  programs. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  And  Mr.  Dmitriev  described  his  banking  business  to 
you  involving  much  larger  transactions? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Yeah,  he  just  said  he  was  a  --  I  said,  you  know,  what 
do  you  do?  And  he  said,  I  manage  a  hedge  fund,  and  it's  some  multiple 
billions  of  dollars. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  But  he  gave  you  enough  information  to  know  that  he 
dealt  in  big  numbers,  bigger  than  Mr.  Charlier. 




MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  again,  an  investment  fund  puts  money  to  work. 
Okay?  Mr.  Charlier  works  at  a  firm  that  raises  money  for  businesses 
or  helps  buy  or  sell  a  business.  It's  almost  like  talking  to  a  home 
developer  lender  versus  talking  to  a  real  estate  agent. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  I'm  just  trying  to  get  a  sense  of  what  Mr.  Dmitriev 
communicated  to  you  about  the  nature  of  the  bank  he  worked  with. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Well,  I  wouldn't  say  he  characterized  as  a  bank.  He 
said  he  works  for  a  big  fund. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  he  tell  you  it  was  a  Russian  state  fund? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  In  the  Washington  Post  article  about  the  meeting  in 
the  Seychelles  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  The  one  triggered  by  the  illegal  leaks,  right?  That 


MR.  SCHIFF:  The  one  entitled  "Blackwater  Founder  Held  Secret 
Seychelles  Meeting  to  Establish  Trump-Putin  Back  Channel,"  that 
article.  It  states,  "Though  the  full  agenda  remains  unclear,  the  UAE 
agreed  to  broker  the  meeting  in  part  to  explore  whether  Russia  could 
be  persuaded  to  curtail  its  relationship  with  Iran,  including  in  Syria, 
a  Trump  administration  objective  that  would  be  likely  to  require  major 
concessions  to  Moscow  on  U.S.  sanctions." 

Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  Dmitriev  whether  Russia  could  be 
persuaded  to  curtail  its  relationship  with  Iran? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Did  you  discuss  with  Mr.  Dmitriev  working  with 




Russia  in  any  way  in  Syria? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No.  Well,  what  I  did  say  is,  if  we  could  work 
together  with  Dosef  Stalin,  we  could  certainly  work  together  with 
Vladimir  Putin  to  defeat  Islamic  fascism.  So,  since  there  is  Islamic 
fascism  present  in  Syria,  there  would  presumably,  hopefully,  be  some 
cooperation  to  jointly  work  together  to  defeat  them. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  But  in  terms  of  a  specific  mention  of  Syria,  that 
never  came  up  in  the  conversation? 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  It  also  provides  in  that  article:  Following  the  New 
York  meeting  between  the  Emiratis  and  Trump  aides,  Zayed  was  approached 
by  Prince,  who  said  he  was  authorized  to  act  as  an  unofficial  surrogate 
for  the  President-elect  according  to  the  officials.  He  wanted  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  true. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Okay.  I  was  going  to  ask  you  if  that's  true. 

He  wanted  Zayed  to  set  up  a  meeting  with  a  Putin  associate. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  true. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Zayed  agreed  and  proposed  the  Seychelles  as  the 
meeting  place  because  of  the  privacy  it  would  afford  both  sides. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said,  not  true.  Fabrication. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  He  wanted  to  be  helpful,  one  official  said  of  Zayed. 

MR.  PRINCE:  Who  wanted  to  be  --  who  is  this  unnamed  official 

reading  unmasked  transcripts? 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Well,  I'm  asking  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Or  surmising. 




MR.  SCHIFF:  --  I'm  asking  you  --  I  mean,  you're  saying  none  of 
this  is  true,  right?  So  presumably  it  wouldn’t  be  transcripts,  would 
it?  You  never  had  these  conversations,  did  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  So,  then,  presumably  there  wouldn't  be  a  transcript, 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  a  transcript.  But  I  can't  imagine  who  the 
anonymous  fabricator  of  this  story  is. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Okay. 

Let  me  yield  to  Mr.  Castro. 

MR.  CASTRO:  In  a  November  4,  2016,  Breitbart  article,  you  are 
quoted  as  saying  you  had,  quote,  "well-placed  sources"  in  the  New  York 
Police  Department  and  that  you  had  insider  knowledge  of  then-FBI 
Director  Comey's  investigation  into  Hillary  Clinton's  email  server. 
You  also  claimed  that  you  believed  that  multiple  foreign  agencies 
hacked  Hillary  Clinton's  private  email  server. 

Did  you  ever  have  sources  in  the  NYPD  giving  you  insider  knowledge 
about  FBI  investigations? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Not  certainly  about  FBI  investigations.  But,  I 
mean,  there  is  a  Romanian  hacker  in  Federal  custody  of  the  United  States 
that  admitted  to  hacking  the  DNC  emails. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Is  that  what  the  NYPD  folks  were  talking  to  you 

MR.  PRINCE:  No. 

MR.  CASTRO:  So,  I  guess,  why  were  you  quoted  in  that  story  as 




saying  that  somebody  in  NYPD  was  telling  you  stuff? 

MR.  PRINCE:  How  is  this  germane  to  this  fishing  expedition? 

MR.  CASTRO:  Well,  it's  germane  in  terms  of  what  we're  covering 
because  of  the  hacks  during  the  election,  because  you've  been  quoted 
as  speaking  on  that  subject,  and  also  because  of  the  leaks. 

So  what  was  NYPD  telling  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  had  to  do  with  Anthony  Weiner’s  computer. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Okay.  What  were  you  told  by  these  folks  at  NYPD, 
and  who  told  you? 

MR.  PRINCE:  That  I'm  not  going  to  talk  about  today. 

MR.  CASTRO:  You're  refusing  to  answer  the  question? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Correct.  I'm  not  going  to  disclose  the  source. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  ask  that  if  he  wants  to  answer 
it  in  closed  session,  we  can  take  it  in  closed  session,  but  he'd  got 

no  reason  to  -- 

So,  no,  I'm  not  going  to  disclose  that  source  at  the  NYPD  because 
this  is  a  leaky  committee,  and  I  will  not  do  it. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Mr.  Chairman,  this  is  well  within  the  purview  of  what 
we're  -- 





MR.  CASTRO:  --  trying  to  figure  out. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Well,  he's  here,  Toaquin,  on  a  voluntary 
basis.  There's  no  way  to  compel  him  to  do  that  at  this  stage. 

MR.  CASTRO:  I  understand  that.  Then  I  would  ask  the  ranking 
member  and  the  chairman  to  at  some  point  compel  the  witness  to  answer 
that  in  the  future. 

But  I'll  continue. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  We* 11  take  that  under  advisement. 

MR.  CASTRO:  What  information  did  you  receive  from  folks  at  NYPD 
about  Hillary  Clinton's  emails? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  didn't  say  it  was  about  Hillary  Clinton's  emails. 
I  said  it  was  about  Anthony  Weiner's  emails. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Well,  what  information  did  you  receive  about  that? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said,  we're  not  going  to  go  further  on  that 
line  of  questioning. 

MR.  CASTRO:  We  can  figure  out  revealing  the  source  later.  I'm 
just  asking  you  what  they  told  you. 

MR.  PRINCE:  They  discussed  the  nature  of  the  large  trove  of 




Hillary  Clinton's  emails,  which  actually  included  a  large  number  of 
classified  emails,  that  were  somehow  resident  on  Anthony  Weiner's 
computer  from  someone  backing  up  their  computer  --  or  backing  up  their 
mobile  device. 

And  I  really  appreciate  the  committee’s  interest  in  the 
preservation  of  all  this  electronic  information.  I  only  hope  that  they 
were  as  diligent  in  doing  that  when  Secretary  Clinton  had  thousands 
of  emails  that  disappeared.  And  I  just  would  hope  that  the 
committee  -- 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Mr.  Prince,  that’s  not  within  our 

MR.  PRINCE:  --  is  pursuing  equal  justice. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Mr.  Prince,  that's  not  within  our 
jurisdiction . 

Go  ahead,  Mr.  Castro. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Did  you  ever  share  any  of  the  information  that  you 
received  from  folks  at  NYPD  with  anyone  on  the  Trump  campaign?  If  so, 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  did  it  in  an  interview.  That's  all. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Did  you  ever  speak  about  any  of  this  information  with 
Rudy  Giuliani? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Nope. 

MR.  CASTRO:  I  have  some  questions  about  your  methods  of 
communication  in  case  this  committee  needs  to  verify  anything  that 
you've  said. 




From  the  period  of,  we'll  use  Dune  2015  as  a  starting  point,  to 
the  present  day,  I'm  going  to  ask  you  about  how  many  emails  you  have, 
how  many  cell  phones  you  have,  and  whether  you  use  encrypted  apps. 

So  how  many  email  accounts  have  you  used  during  that  period? 

MR.  PRINCE:  I  have  produced  all  the  relevant  documentation  that 
the  committee  has  asked  for.  And,  in  fact,  in  reading  your  letter, 
the  only  thing  I  haven't  provided  is  a  plane  ticket. 

MR.  CASTRO:  And,  Mr.  Prince,  this  is  a  standard  question  that 
I  think  every  witness  has  answered.  We're  not  picking  on  you;  it’s 
not  a  special  question  for  you.  We  just  need  to  have  this  understanding 
in  case  there's  an  inconsistency  in  your  testimony  and  something  needs 
to  be  verified. 













this  time 








Well,  do  I  use  encrypted  apps?  Sure. 

Okay.  Which  ones? 

I'm  a  big  fan  of  Wickr. 

Okay.  How  about  Signal? 

I’ve  used  it  in  the  past,  sure. 

During  this  time  period.  I'm  only  asking  during 
not  2012  or  2013. 

I  don’t  think  it  existed  then. 

Okay.  So,  during  this  time  period,  did  you  use 

Possibly.  Sure. 

What  else?  Which  other  ones? 

That's  it. 







Huh-uh,  no. 




That's  not  an  encrypted  app. 


Did  you  use  WhatsApp? 


Facebook  paid  $19  billion  for  WhatsApp  because 

everything  is  monitored  and  collected.  It  is  the  opposite  of  an 

encrypted  app. 


Great.  Did  you  use  WhatsApp? 




Did  you  communicate  through  direct  message  on 

Twitter  or  Facebook? 


I  don't  use  any  of  that. 



How  many  cell  phones  did  you  use  during  the  period  that  I  stated? 




Were  they  both  personal?  Were  they  one  a  business 

phone,  one  a  personal  phone? 


Personal  phones. 


Did  you  use  any  burner  phones? 




We  spoke  about  apps.  How  about  email  addresses? 


I  have  a  couple  email  addresses,  but  I'm  certainly 

not  going  to  list 

those  to  you  here. 


Are  they  business  addresses?  Personal  addresses? 




MR.  PRINCE:  Like  I  said.  I’m  not  answering  any  more  on  emails. 
I’ve  provided  everything  you've  asked  for  in  your  discovery  request. 

MR.  CASTRO:  And,  again,  I've  explained  that  with  every  witness 
we’ve  asked  these  questions  in  case  we  need  to  verify  things,  in  case 
any  witness,  not  you  in  particular,  in  case  any  witness  is  not  telling 
us  the  whole  truth  or  is  lying  to  us .  How  else  are  we  going  to  go  verify 
this  stuff? 

MR.  PRINCE:  Email  addresses?  Three. 

MR.  CASTRO:  Are  they  personal  or  business  email  addresses? 
MR.  PRINCE:  I  would  say  two  business  and  one  personal. 

MR.  CASTRO:  I  yield  back  to  the  ranking  member. 

MR.  SCHIFF:  Mr.  Chairman,  we’d  now  like  to  try  to  resolve  the 
process  for  either  redacting  information  in  the  record  or  going  into 
closed  session  so  that  we  may  obtain  the  information  that  the  -- 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  All  right.  Before  we  do  that,  Tom's  got  a 

question  real  quick. 

MR.  ROONEY:  I’ve  just  got  a  parliamentary  question.  Mr.  Schiff 
mentioned  that  if  the  witness  wasn’t  complying  with  the  line  of 
questions  that  were  being  asked  that  we  would  issue  a  subpoena.  Is 
it  not  the  rule  of  this  committee  that  a  subpoena  can  only  be  issued 
by  a  vote  of  the  committee  or,  I  believe,  by  the  chairman? 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  By  the  chairman.  That’s  correct. 

MR.  ROONEY:  So  I  just  want  to  be  clear  that,  when  you  say  that 
we’re  going  to  issue  a  subpoena,  there’s  a  lot  of  people  that  aren’t 
here,  and  I  certainly  don't  want  the  ranking  member  to  be  speaking  for 




those  people  that  aren't  here  nor  some  of  the  people  that  are  here, 
because  we  have  no  idea  if  we'd  actually  be  able  to  get  that  vote.  We 
might . 

But,  I  mean,  I  think  that  just  saying  that  we’re  going  to  subpoena 
any  witness,  whether  it's  this  one  or  any  one,  needs  to  be  taken  into 
the  context  of  that  has  to  be  voted  on.  Is  that  correct? 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  The  chairman  has  the  prerogative  of  issuing 
a  subpoena  at  my  request. 

MR.  ROONEY:  Thank  you. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  So,  Mr.  Prince,  if  you'll  indulge  us  a  couple 
more  minutes,  let's  go  off  the  record. 

[Discussion  held  off  the  record.] 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  Let's  go  back  on  the  record. 

So,  Mr.  Prince,  it's  our  understanding  that  you  will  check  with 
your  sources  with  respect  to  the  folks  that  you  believe  gave  you  the 
information  relative  to  SIGINT  -- 

MR.  PRINCE:  Sure. 

CHAIRMAN  CONAWAY:  --on  the  Seychelles.  And  if  they'll  agree 
to  give  you  the  names,  you'll  come  back  to  us  with  that  name.  The 
committee  reserves  the  right  to  subpoena  you  again  --  or  to  subpoena 
you  if,  in  fact,  we  need  to  get  that  done.  We’ll  need  to  have  further 
conversations  with  you  relative  to  the  NYPD  folks  as  well. 

I  ask  unanimous  consent  that  the  committee  staff  be  authorized 
to  make  any  technical,  grammatical,  or  conforming  changes,  including 
redactions  of  personally  identifiable  information,  to  the  transcript 




before  it  is  released. 

Without  objection,  so  ordered. 

I  also  ask  unanimous  consent  of  the  committee's  security  director 
to  review  the  transcript  of  today's  hearing  to  ensure  appropriate 
classification  and  to  make  any  necessary  redactions  of  classified 
information  from  open  session  before  the  transcript  is  released.  And 
I  believe  Mr.  Prince  can  review  that  transcript  as  well. 

Our  committee's  rules,  Mr.  Prince,  allow  us  to  release  it  within 
3  days.  So  if  you  care  to  come  in  and  read  the  transcript  for  editing 
purposes  only,  you're  more  than  welcome  do  that. 

Without  objection,  that  is  so  ordered. 

And  we  are  adjourned.  Thank  you,  sir. 

[Whereupon,  at  6:14  p.m.,  the  committee  was  adjourned.]